Nintendo Switch, and the issue with its storage medium

[TooB]

I just saw another 3rd party game announced for Switch (The Banner Saga Trilogy) and, surprise! It will require an sd card and internet download with purchase of the physical cart.

Regardless of who the blame goes to, Nintendo for their choice of format, or devs/pubs for not wanting to pay for larger carts, which in turn is still kinda Nintendo's fault, I am sick of seeing this.

There are a number of games I would've loved to have on switch, but didn't buy simply because of this.

[Kalahari Inkantation]

yeah unfortunately nintendo is absolutely at hardware design as anyone who isn't delusional can clearly see

i predicted (anybody with half a brain could have) several times over that this would be an obvious problem more than two years ago while the switch rumours were heating up:

So, cartridges?

i'll believe it when i see it

nintendo would be absolutely stupid (lol) to return to anything like cartridges for a home console because solid state media is STILL vastly more expensive than optical media

that hasn't changed since the n64 days and really isn't likely to change ever

rom prices aren't really readily available to the general public but if we judge by things like flash memory vs blu ray discs, the cost per gigabyte for flash is literally about ten times higher than it is for discs

yeah sure nintendo would get wholesale prices on rom or flash chips but they get wholesale prices on discs too

suddenly the cost of publishing a game on a nintendo console would be whole dollars higher for third parties than it would be to publish the very same game on rival platforms, just like in the n64 days, and if they hope to recover much needed third party support they can't afford to disincentivize them by using some needlessly expensive distribution format

and

dude solid storage has caught up to if not surpassed discs at this point

in capacity (and even then only arguably), not in price

so long as discs exist, flash storage will never be cheaper per unit than optical storage is

hi hiro

and

Solid state media isn't that expensive anymore (well it's way more than discs but compared to the n64 days at least) so it's possible they will have a 32 gb or even 64 gb maximum for the cards, which would negate the need for multicart games.

but it's yet another point in an ever-expanding list that discourages third parties from supporting the switch

porting to the switch is already a highly expensive proposition for third parties due to the costs (financial, temporal and otherwise) of supremely optimizing code for hardware that's two generations behind in computing power

but now they also have to pay a premium for solid state storage vs. discs (optical storage is about 1/10 the price/gigabyte of flash storage)

and the fruit of their labor would ultimately prove to be an inferior product to the ps4 and xbox equivalents every single time because of the immense power discrepancy

meaning ported software wouldn't sell well at all

so most developers are going to reasonably look at the switch and say 'what's the point', while pretending they're going to support it early on for marketing reasons just like what happened with the wii u

honestly, when after all these years nintendo still hasn't made any earnest attempt whatsoever to reconcile with third parties, nobody can blame them for snubbing nintendo

oh hey there mongler

[bluaki]

It's a handheld console more than anything. I sure hope you don't expect handhelds to use full-size blu-ray discs

Even Sony's UMD was a clunky disaster that PSP Go abandoned and that's not even a full-size disc; they're 64mm while DVDs are 120mm. Considering that 80mm BD-R discs on the market only hold 7.5GB, and let's generously double that to 15GB for dual-layer, a similar BD-based format can't even match the carts' capacity. Modern carts are better than the PSP/GameCube approach.

The best alternative I can imagine would be including an optical drive in the dock itself, so instead of an internet download you can combine the cart with a disc install that has to be performed while docked before being able to play it in handheld mode. That would increase hardware costs of the dock substantially while saving some money on game production and not even avoiding the problem of SD space.

If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market. Even if they advertise it differently, Switch is basically a handheld with video-out (like PSP had) and detachable controllers. Technology has developed to the point that handhelds can somewhat hold up to stationary consoles, but this is one of many compromises they still have.

[Kalahari Inkantation]

It's a handheld console more than anything. I sure hope you don't expect handhelds to use full-size blu-ray discs

I don't of course, but at the time I absolutely did not expect that the NX would actually turn out to be some ridiculous impractical """hybrid""" platform.

If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market. Even if they advertise it differently, Switch is basically a handheld with video-out (like PSP had) and detachable controllers.

It hurts.

[TooB]

Sure, if you want a good 3rd party machine, by all means, grab a ps4 or xbox.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that many 3rd party games are being released for the switch, and it would be (for the most part) a cool thing to have some games on for the portability.

I would've loved to buy the Mega Man collections on switch, but lo and behold, they couldn't even fit a collection of mostly 8-bit games on a switch cart.

Regardless of the reason why that happened, it all comes back to Nintendo's decisions

[TooB]

But I mean, people can feed me technicalities all day. I'll still always hate this situation.

[Kalahari Inkantation]

Regardless of the reason why that happened, it all comes back to Nintendo's decisions

this is what it really comes down to

nintendo is simply horrible at optimizing its hardware designs to be practical for third-party devs (and sometimes even first-party devs ), the only exceptions being those situations where they have a near-monopoly and devs don't have a choice but to conform to nintendo's insane standards (eg., traditional handhelds like the gameboy and ds lines)

[bluaki]

If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market.

Actually, it's more like Nintendo hasn't really met that market since all the way back to around SNES or maybe N64.

N64 had issues with carts vs Sony's CDs. GameCube had issues with the miniDVD and relatively lower market share compared to PS2. Wii had low computing power and a weird controller when compared to PS3/360. WiiU had abysmal market share and still lower computing power compared to PS4/XB1.

So leaving that market, especially now that they can now have a handheld that computationally outperforms their last stationary console, seems like the right move to me. Nintendo has always excelled at the handheld experience and handhelds have gotten close enough to consoles that it doesn't make sense to split up the first party games anymore, like how Smash 4 released on both 3DS and Wii U.

That said, it's pretty clear Switch was rushed a bit because of just how poorly Wii U was received. It won't take all that long for 32GB and 64GB carts to be more readily available to developers at better prices. 3DS launched with max 2GB carts and later went up to 4GB and later 8GB. Switch launched with 16GB and has maybe one or two 32GB games so far.

My biggest concern from game card size right now is Smash Bros. Smash Wii U is 15.7GB + 2.3GB DLC = 18GB even with all the songs cut down to no longer than 2 minutes, 10+ fewer fighters than SSBU, no story mode, missing several 3DS-exclusive stages, etc. I sure hope Nintendo uses a 32GB card for it. Smash Bros certainly nets enough profits to justify it.

[bluaki]

Sure, if you want a good 3rd party machine, by all means, grab a ps4 or xbox.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that many 3rd party games are being released for the switch, and it would be (for the most part) a cool thing to have some games on for the portability.

Regardless of the reason why that happened, it all comes back to Nintendo's decisions

I don't really get the logic here

It would be great to have these third-party games on the Switch because of portability
+
It's a shame that Nintendo made the decision to inherit the technical limitations of being a portable system

I would've loved to buy the Mega Man collections on switch, but lo and behold, they couldn't even fit a collection of mostly 8-bit games on a switch cart.

Mega Man Legacy Collections 1 and 2 take up a combined less than 3.6GB when downloaded from the eShop. There's no way 4GB cards are too substantial a cost for a $40 game.

I'm guessing Capcom was too lazy to change the programming even a tiny bit from the separate releases, like even to the extent of changing the menu to include all the games of both collections.

They can't even fit the combined Mega Man Legacy Collection 1+2 on a single PS4 blu-ray disc

[TooB]

Sure, if you want a good 3rd party machine, by all means, grab a ps4 or xbox.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that many 3rd party games are being released for the switch, and it would be (for the most part) a cool thing to have some games on for the portability.

Regardless of the reason why that happened, it all comes back to Nintendo's decisions

I don't really get the logic here

It would be great to have these third-party games on the Switch because of portability
+
It's a shame that Nintendo made the decision to inherit the technical limitations of being a portable system

I would've loved to buy the Mega Man collections on switch, but lo and behold, they couldn't even fit a collection of mostly 8-bit games on a switch cart.

Mega Man Legacy Collections 1 and 2 take up a combined less than 3.6GB when downloaded from the eShop. There's no way 4GB cards are too substantial a cost for a $40 game.

I'm guessing Capcom was too lazy to change the programming even a tiny bit from the separate releases, like even to the extent of changing the menu to include all the games of both collections.

They can't even fit the combined Mega Man Legacy Collection 1+2 on a single PS4 blu-ray disc

This.
this is the issue. It's not marketed as simply a "portable system."

As for Mega Man on 2 blu ray discs, one argue that it was because they were released separately, quite a bit of time between games. Why release separately in the first place, idk.

The real kicker is the X Legacy Collections on 2 discs. But here, you could argue it's because of the 2 playstation games, but even, then, a bit fishy.

[Thyme]

If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market. Even if they advertise it differently, Switch is basically a handheld with video-out (like PSP had) and detachable controllers.

It hurts.

i use mine primarily in docked mode

[C.Mongler]

oh hey there mongler

?? 32gb and 64 gb cards exist well 32 gb exist and 64 gb are IN DA WORKS, and the entire banner saga trilogy could fit on a 16 GB card lol i'm not sure what EPIC PWN you're getting at since all i did was present the idea that there can be large cart sizes and devs won't be doing multicarts...which are both thus far true?????

i'm not sure what solution you're suggesting otherwise anyway, 100% digital? that's not a solution to john's problem-o lol. the thing would never have had a disc drive so thats bunk lol

the big problem is nintendrones are tools and lap up fucking anything for any reason after the great wii u drought and so no developer has received any significant commercial backlash for doing this lol. it will keep happening until people actually don't buy DOWNLOAD REQUIRED games, unless nintendo swoops down from the heavens and says NO MORE YEE DEVELOPERS but why would they do that they're getting their cut lol

[TooB]

If you're going to release a game that requires a download anyway, why even bother with the costs of making a cartridge at all? Just do a digital only release on switch, but even that presents another problem...

Which is that Nintendo doesn't seem to know what acceptable storage size is for hdd, or flash memory, or whatever.

Yes. Sd card compatible, but they could easily include at least a couple hundred gigs of whatever storage they use, price increase being irrelevant

[C.Mongler]

If you're going to release a game that requires a download anyway, why even bother with the costs of making a cartridge at all?

banner saga is actually a weird case where the physical is cheaper than the digital collection actually i just found out you get eshop discounts on the other games if you own one, so maybe not i'm too lazy to math, but usually the answer is 'free money'. physical collectors are going nuts on the switch, and then they can charge a premium to boot. see:every nicalis game. even if cartridges are "expensive", you're still only paying a couple bucks a unit to produce, so you're making a shit ton on sales (ignoring development overhead costs, obvs). it's not like devs are even close to losing money here, so there's no reason not to.

Yes. Sd card compatible, but they could easily include at least a couple hundred gigs of whatever storage they use, price increase being irrelevant

I would not pay another $100 for a Switch with 200+ gb of internal memory, but to each their own lol.

[TooB]

I doubt it would be a $100 increase, but either way, you make an unintentional point. If they increased storage, they probably would've cut corners somewhere else