i feel like it might as well be, like you are technically programming things, just not with code

it is IMO cuz if it isn't then you could say that high level languages like python aren't real programming cuz they have such a high level of abstraction compared to lower levels like C and then C isn't real programming compared to like asm or literal machine code either, then it's just a bit mad TBH. game maker is just like an even higher level of abstraction but its still programming at the end of the day init

Quote from: ikanaide on November 07, 2020, 05:37:08 AMit is IMO cuz if it isn't then you could say that high level languages like python aren't real programming cuz they have such a high level of abstraction compared to lower levels like C and then C isn't real programming compared to like asm or literal machine code either, then it's just a bit mad TBH. game maker is just like an even higher level of abstraction but its still programming at the end of the day init

agreed

Quote from: strongbad on July 28, 2020, 08:25:58 PMi feel like it might as well be, like you are technically programming things, just not with code

even then, this isn't entirely true. there is no such thing as a decent game made with gamemaker that does not use a great deal of GML - Game Maker Language, manually typed out.

a lot can be handled via drag and drop, yes, but there is a ton where this simply isn't doable, and you will have to write it manually. that's where knowledge of GML comes in.

so yes, it still involves a lot of programming, in a language specific to GM.

Quote from: Samus Aran on November 14, 2020, 10:31:02 PM

Quote from: strongbad on July 28, 2020, 08:25:58 PMi feel like it might as well be, like you are technically programming things, just not with code

even then, this isn't entirely true. there is no such thing as a decent game made with gamemaker that does not use a great deal of GML - Game Maker Language, manually typed out.

a lot can be handled via drag and drop, yes, but there is a ton where this simply isn't doable, and you will have to write it manually. that's where knowledge of GML comes in.

so yes, it still involves a lot of programming, in a language specific to GM.

i'm not familiar with how gamemaker works, but I'm sure GML is a heavy abstraction language too, which begs the question of at what point does enough abstraction make it not programming?

sure, drag and drop using a UI isn't "coding" since coding implies text-based code, but it's definitely programming in the sense that you are programming something

basically just regurgitating what ikandy is saying

the majority of programming nowadays is pretty abstracted to be fair

Quote from: Hiro on November 16, 2020, 01:35:35 PMthe majority of programming nowadays is pretty abstracted to be fair

exactly so where do you draw the line?

who cares

The REAL question to ask yourself is "Does GameMaker's built-in programmability allow enough customization for what I want to do with it?"

if the answer is yes then haters can get fucked

i want to say that all programming no matter how low-level is based on some form of abstraction since we don't actually think in 1s and 0s. with this in mind, i think there is no line that can be drawn. it always will be programming no matter the degree of abstraction because programming describes a fundamental concept.

i think when people use "real programming" as a term of elitism, it doesn't actually have anything to do with the definition of programming... they're pretty much just expressing how newly introduced programming conventions feel alien to them compared to the tools they learned to program with and how much pain it delivers to their buttholes. basically when i think of "real programming" i picture some middle aged dude who spent his life coding in php and thinks it will never be replaced

Quote from: Mando Pandango on November 16, 2020, 02:31:56 PMwho cares

The REAL question to ask yourself is "Does GameMaker's built-in programmability allow enough customization for what I want to do with it?"

if the answer is yes then haters can get fucked

i don't think anyone is arguing against this

spelunky classic was made in game maker

Quote from: ikanaide on November 16, 2020, 02:34:31 PMi think when people use "real programming" as a term of elitism, it doesn't actually have anything to do with the definition of programming... they're pretty much just expressing how newly introduced programming conventions feel alien to them compared to the tools they learned to program with and how much pain it delivers to their buttholes. basically when i think of "real programming" i picture some middle aged dude who spent his life coding in php and thinks it will never be replaced

agreed

the more i learn about programming the less of a programmer i feel like. i recently wrote a function that handles http get/post/put requests and all i have learned about the nature of these requests is which c# library to call lol

Quote from: strongbad on November 16, 2020, 03:49:59 PM

Quote from: Mando Pandango on November 16, 2020, 02:31:56 PMwho cares

The REAL question to ask yourself is "Does GameMaker's built-in programmability allow enough customization for what I want to do with it?"

if the answer is yes then haters can get fucked

i don't think anyone is arguing against this

spelunky classic was made in game maker

a lot of very impressive games were made in game maker. va-11 hall-a, undertale, hotline miami, katana zero, hyper light drifter.

yeah really it's just a testament to the idea that good game design trumps all

don't get me started on nethack lol
EDIT: i should probably put in a disclaimer that there is a lot about nethack that is definitely not good game design lol but that's besides the point

I tried playing nethack once and was in way over my head. Feel like i should try again