Do you think God( if a being as of that nature exist) created evolution, or did "God" lose control of his "creation". Simply put did a high being make the cavemen which evolved into us? Discuss and try to bring up other issues dealing with God creating Evolution.
Well being that God is supposedly "all powerful" I doubt he'd lose control of something he created, since that would contradict his very existance. So yes, I'd say he created evolution, sure
Yeah.
If he didn't, who did? Did it just spring up on its own? That would imply that God doesn't have control over all things. And if God can't control everything, what kind of god is he?
Quote from: RDX on July 31, 2009, 01:20:29 PM
Yeah.
If he didn't, who did? Did it just spring up on its own?
yes
Quote from: RDX on July 31, 2009, 01:20:29 PM
Yeah.
If he didn't, who did? Did it just spring up on its own? That would imply that God doesn't have control over all things. And if God can't control everything, what kind of god is he?
maybe God just spaced and forgot about us. Maybe God doesn't care.
Quote from: Trav on July 31, 2009, 01:21:20 PM
yes
But that's an atheistic way of thinking.
And I'm not a heretic baddood;
Quote from: NautSyd on July 31, 2009, 01:21:44 PM
maybe God just spaced and forgot about us. Maybe God doesn't care.
but God is said to care deeply about his creation. this is repeated in the quran about every 20 or so verses over and over. so i dont think God is just so sick of earth that hes just sleeping on his godly control panel bored out of his mind
Why would God create evolution? If he is all knowing and all powerful wouldn't he create things exactly how he wants them?
Also, nothing created evolution.
I'm gonna be a douche and say this is a dumb question, because basically youre asking "Do you think God has control over everything?". The religious man will say "Yes", then the atheist man will say "No, because he doesn't exist". Then the religious man will say "You're retarded yes he does" and then it boils down to just being another "lol does god exist?" debate that never ends.
Asking if God exists is like asking if abortion is ok. Unless if you want a headache and many wasted hours, you dont ask that question at all.
Well, if God gives humans ways to better themselves, or a free will to decide themselves whether to be good or evil, it could mean that God would give the same paths and choices to the plant and animals of the world, to create a base life capable of deciding paths of extinction or perfection, the planet slowly changing as time passes.
If there is a god I would think it could intervene evolution at any time, but chooses not to just as it allows Humankind to live as they will, knowing their fate from the beginning and the ability change them at a whim.
Quote from: RDX on July 31, 2009, 02:05:31 PM
I'm gonna be a douche and say this is a dumb question, because basically youre asking "Do you think God has control over everything?". The religious man will say "Yes", then the atheist man will say "No, because he doesn't exist". Then the religious man will say "You're retarded yes he does" and then it boils down to just being another "lol does god exist?" debate that never ends.
Asking if God exists is like asking if abortion is ok. Unless if you want a headache and many wasted hours, you dont ask that question at all.
Wow, finally someone sums up why I generally never post in these threads. "Hey guys, let's argue about something that mankind has no hope of ever proving one way or the other!"
Quote from: Ken on July 31, 2009, 03:50:58 PM
Wow, finally someone sums up why I generally never post in these threads. "Hey guys, let's argue about something that mankind has no hope of ever proving one way or the other!"
Are you saying if God existed there would be no way to prove that?
Quote from: Prowling Kewn on July 31, 2009, 04:32:11 PM
Are you saying if God existed there would be no way to prove that?
There's no way to prove it to an atheist, yeah. You know that just as well as I do. If someone pointed out all of what they call proof, you wouldn't believe any of it.
Quote from: Ken on July 31, 2009, 04:34:05 PM
There's no way to prove it to an atheist, yeah. You know that just as well as I do. If someone pointed out all of what they call proof, you wouldn't believe any of it.
Uh, I would think that if an atheist saw Jesus descend from the heavens or God smite and entire city or something with actual "proof" they wouldn't reject it.
Quote from: Prowling Kewn on July 31, 2009, 04:36:18 PM
Uh, I would think that if an atheist saw Jesus descend from the heavens or God smite and entire city or something with actual "proof" they wouldn't reject it.
According to scripture, the only time anything like that is going to happen is the Second Coming, and at that point "proof" won't matter, because atheism would be condemned regardless.
Basically what I'm saying is, the way things are now, taking both scripture and the evolution of science into account, neither an atheist or a Christian will ever be able to prove the other one wrong. That's all there is to it.
Quote from: Ken on July 31, 2009, 04:43:57 PMBasically what I'm saying is, the way things are now, taking both scripture and the evolution of science into account, neither an atheist or a Christian will ever be able to prove the other one wrong. That's all there is to it.
That works out because it's impossible to prove something
doesn't exist.
The problem here is that religious people use that as an argument for God's existence just like not being able to prove that I can't see the future isn't an argument to make a case that I can see into the future.
Evolution has been observed. baddood;
Quote from: Prowling Kewn on July 31, 2009, 04:48:57 PM
Evolution has been observed. baddood;
And someone religious could argue that God's work has been observed. See?
There's really no winning here. Quit trying.
I think the difference between the observed evidence with evolution in comparison to God's work is that its reproducible and observable. You can see genetic change, you can see change in body structure, and all that. With God's work it is all based on faith and no one can really observe it or reproduce it. The faith element is really what causes them to be different.
Quote from: Ken on July 31, 2009, 04:50:07 PM
And someone religious could argue that God's work has been observed. See?
With no evidence though
The evidence for "God's work" will only appear so to that believer.
The evidence for evolution being observed is tangible. There is no opinion of whether or not that bacterium has evolved a resistance to a drug that did not exist 1000 generations before it. It's there to see.
Quote
There's really no winning here. Quit trying.
The issue is trying to make an argument to discredit proven facts by using something without any evidence rather than going the catholic church route and attempting to reconcile them.
wait kaz what are you doing? i thought you dont debate this kind of stuff.
i always found it humorous how in like the bible and stuff, there's always verses saying people who dont believe jesus/muhammad/moses merely because they cant see God are idiots. because according to the average atheist, all the miracles are lies, jesus is a lie, muhammad was merely a poet, moses was a druggie and god doesnt exist because he hasnt paid a personal visit to every person to say "hey buddy i exist here touch my hand".
im not gonna argue further. i just needed to say that because that's always bugged me. feel free to rip me apart.
Quote from: RDX on July 31, 2009, 05:03:17 PMgod doesnt exist because he hasnt paid a personal visit to every person to say "hey buddy i exist here touch my hand".
Now that's just a strawman. An atheist never goes "Because
I've never seen God I know he doesn't exist".
It's that there is no evidence that he exists.
I've never seen a dodo, molecule, albino person, extrasolar planet, or explosion but I know they exist/existed. There is physical evidence of each. There is no physical evidence that God existed.
There is a holy book that even the religious claim was written by man that claims God exists and told them to write it, but it has just as much credibility as The Boble. You can't prove Doodthing did not come to me in math class and tell me to write it and record his image on my Mac.
Quote from: Ken on July 31, 2009, 04:43:57 PMBasically what I'm saying is, the way things are now, taking both scripture and the evolution of science into account, neither an atheist or a Christian will ever be able to prove the other one wrong. That's all there is to it.
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. It's up to them to prove their assertion, not up to others to prove their assertion wrong.
Quote from: Ken on July 31, 2009, 04:50:07 PMAnd someone religious could argue that God's work has been observed. See?
They could argue that, but they shouldn't expect anyone to take them seriously unless they can show that they have some actual basis for calling it "God's work"; otherwise, their claim can be dismissed.
Quote from: RDX on July 31, 2009, 05:03:17 PMi always found it humorous how in like the bible and stuff, there's always verses saying people who dont believe jesus/muhammad/moses merely because they cant see God are idiots.
Where's the humor?
Quotebecause according to the average atheist, all the miracles are lies, jesus is a lie, muhammad was merely a poet, moses was a druggie and god doesnt exist because he hasnt paid a personal visit to every person to say "hey buddy i exist here touch my hand".
Strawman.
The theory of evolution can easily exist with creation. The bible said god created everything, but it diidn't say he created everything as is. In fact, it doesn't even mention how he created everything. Human evolution would go against the bible since the bible specifically mentioned god sending down the race of men, but I don't see how non-humans evolving goes against the bible.
Quote from: coz on July 31, 2009, 06:22:24 PM
The bible said god created everything, but it diidn't say he created everything as is. In fact, it doesn't even mention how he created everything.
i've heard tell that archaeologists have recently unearthed an ancient text which they've dubbed "genesis" which contradicts these claims, though its inclusion in the bible is still controversial
just kidding, it's the first chapter of the old testament akudood;
Quote from: coz on July 31, 2009, 06:22:24 PM
Human evolution would go against the bible since the bible specifically mentioned god sending down the race of men, but I don't see how non-humans evolving goes against the bible.
"everything but humans evolved" goes against science, so uh yeah that doesn't work too well akudood;
Quote from: Ken on July 31, 2009, 04:50:07 PM
There's really no winning here. Quit trying.
i wrote down a fantastic argument to this, but i don't want anyone else to see it STOP QUESTIONING ME THERE IS NO POINT YOU ARE JUST WASTING YOUR TIME akudood;
goddamn is it just me or is there a reason that the "it's pointless" sentiment seems to be one-sided akudood;
Quote from: guff on July 31, 2009, 10:47:00 PM
goddamn is it just me or is there a reason that the "it's pointless" sentiment seems to be one-sided akudood;
It stems from a false sense of superiority which makes one feel that the surroundings are of the same opinion. Also there's not much cyclicality here, just bad argument syntax.
Evolution exists for two reasons, genetic variations in offspring and survival of the fittest. If you believe in god and that he "created" those two things good for you.
I think when asking a question like this you must ask yourself "what is God?"
Based off of the probable backgrounds of most of the users here I'd have to say that when the word God is mentioned most people think of the Christian faith.
Personally I have no faith in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other organized religion. However, I do feel that it's possible that there could be a god or diety of some sort. Overall I lean more towards the side of being an atheist...but unlike many people who hold similar views as me, I do feel that there's a possibility of there being a deity of some sort. Does this mean that there's an afterlife or that this god of sorts is even interested in our moral standings? Not necessarily....
But I think that the universe is far more beautiful and mystifying than people notice.
Evolution and the universe interests me far more than Christianity or any other religious dominion does. I look up at the sky every night and when I do so, I don't try to make up and follow some bogus reason for why we're here, but rather wonder what's out there in the universe....
I don't believe that we as humans are here for any defined reason. We are here by chance. The accidental combination of a billion factors. Venus is too hot for us. A perpetual hell of extreme heat, sulfuric acid rain, and the human perception of death. Mars is too cold and remote. Earth, is like heaven for humans. We evolved here. This is our home. And hopefully one day we'll encounter other life and learn the secrets of their existence as well.
Quote from: Slim on July 31, 2009, 05:29:18 PM
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. It's up to them to prove their assertion, not up to others to prove their assertion wrong.
Isn't saying that there are no divine beings just as much of a claim as saying that there is one? It would be one thing to ignore those claiming that divine beings do exist, but there seems to be a lot of effort put into trying to disprove divinity as well. It's one thing to say, "where's your proof?" and another entirely to completely dismiss the idea. Really atheism must be held as much to that standard as theism considering the amount of time spent by some athiests in trying to disprove the theists' beliefs. Believing there is no god and criticizing those who think there is one (or many) are not inextricable
Quote from: YPR on August 03, 2009, 01:46:12 PM
Isn't saying that there are no divine beings just as much of a claim as saying that there is one?
Who makes that claim (in bold) with certainty? I don't, and I don't know of anyone who does.
QuoteIt would be one thing to ignore those claiming that divine beings do exist, but there seems to be a lot of effort put into trying to disprove divinity as well.
No, there's effort put into exposing the absurdity of various mythologies and the logical inconsistency of different conceptions of god, which is an entirely legitimate endeavor. Anyone trying to "disprove divinity" in the abstract is misplacing their effort I'm afraid, since it's not something that can ever be absolutely disproved, as I've stated before.
QuoteIt's one thing to say, "where's your proof?" and another entirely to completely dismiss the idea.
The claim that a god exists is
unfalsifiable, and thus is not a scientific proposition. Something that's unfalsifiable can be dismissed by science since science does not deal with unfalsifiable claims.
QuoteReally atheism must be held as much to that standard as theism considering the amount of time spent by some athiests in trying to disprove the theists' beliefs. Believing there is no god and criticizing those who think there is one (or many) are not inextricable
Atheism is not an ideology: it can't be held to any "standard." Also, how atheists spend their time is irrelevant to the validity of their position.
Quote from: YPR on August 03, 2009, 01:46:12 PM
Isn't saying that there are no divine beings just as much of a claim as saying that there is one? It would be one thing to ignore those claiming that divine beings do exist, but there seems to be a lot of effort put into trying to disprove divinity as well. It's one thing to say, "where's your proof?" and another entirely to completely dismiss the idea. Really atheism must be held as much to that standard as theism considering the amount of time spent by some athiests in trying to disprove the theists' beliefs. Believing there is no god and criticizing those who think there is one (or many) are not inextricable
I'm sorry but I must disagree with you on this matter.
The main point brought up by atheists is this. Why worship something that has no means of physical evidence? Using the Judeo-Christian beliefs as an example; the largest piece of "proof" that they have is a book written by multiple people over the course of several thousands of years, and then translated multiple times adapted to various societies. I feel that most atheists aren't trying to "disprove" the existence of this god per say; but are rather trying to use logic in the situation. Do you really believe that a senior citizen herded two of every species of every land animal into a giant boat, sailed the seas for a long amount of time and then successfully repopulated the Earth?
And another reason why atheists try to disprove the existence of a known deity. The fact that it holds back the progress of civilization as a whole. In all reality I have no qualms with people worshiping whom they want in the quarters of their own homes and the depths of their own minds. As a free nation this is one of America's greatest virtues. But when these muddled beliefs come in contact with others they can be quite corrosive.
I would not by any means of the word call myself an atheist; but I can understand their point and their struggle. Religion is very serious factor in the superego of man. It intertwines and connects itself into the very fiber of one's mind shaping moral viewpoints. The line that decides what is "evil" and what is "good" in a man's mind can be a very dangerous one. Atheists like Richard Dawkins struggle to see people freed of these illogical dogmas, and in the process, the same mental bonding of religion and mind that happens within the beings of the religious has happened to Dawkins...but in a very different way.
Dawkins cannot stand to see the world continue to trott down it's current path in the illogical storm of religion. Religious people (some of them) cannot stand to see people of different faiths whether it be an atheist or someone from a different religion question them; as their religion is tied to the very core of their beliefs.
Religion and mythology evolves along with civilized creatures.
I'll stick with logic.
Honestly, I doubt anything I wrote above this will make any sense. I am VERY VERY high right now. And as I know people may look at this post now and think that I'm a druggie showing off my rebellious tendencies, I just trail off sometimes and I must apologize for such an annoying trait :(
Quote from: Chﾃ...ﾂ行hﾃ...ﾂｫ on August 03, 2009, 09:27:03 PMAtheists like Richard Dawkins struggle to see people freed of these illogical dogmas, and in the process, the same mental bonding of religion and mind that happens within the beings of the religious has happened to Dawkins...but in a very different way.
Please clarify what you're trying to get across in this sentence.
Quote from: Slim on August 03, 2009, 09:37:46 PM
Please clarify what you're trying to get across in this sentence.
My point is this. Christians have their view of the world, atheists have theirs.
In many cases, I've heard Christians say "why can't atheists just let us believe what we want?"
In the case of Richard Dawkins and many other atheists, they can't let the Christians do that....And the reason for this is the same reason why the Christians help recruit and bring other people into their own faith. To Christians, there's only one way that the world works. The way of the bible, and the way of Jesus. To many atheists like Richard Dawkins, they feel like they can't allow themselves to watch these people delude themselves and their children, and they feel like they need to do something about it. As a means of...preserving reality per say.
I'm not an extreme atheist by any means. Nor am I a follower of any organized religion. But at the end of the day, many atheists just feel like they can't stand to watch people lying to themselves every day, even if it makes them happy. Because in the long run, it impedes the progress of society, and overall, mankind.
If you want to believe in God, then do so, if you want to believe in nothing, then do so. And shut the fuck up about it.
That's my view. Honestly there are millions of theories and beliefs about where we came from out there, and the living will never know which one is actually true so just don't bother thinking about it, let alone arguing about it.
There is one concrete universal fact, and that is that the existence of life or anything for that matter is totally pointless. But the good thing is that's the beauty of life, there doesn't need to be a point.
Quote from: Selkie on August 04, 2009, 03:43:41 PMif you want to believe in nothing, then do so. And shut the fuck up about it.
I can't do that when there are people trying to push the bullshit that is ID into public schools and discriminate against atheists(boy scouts, a lot of people will refuse to vote for someone if they don't believe in a god, it goes on).
It's the religious people who make it an issue not the atheists.
Quote from: Prowling Kewn on August 04, 2009, 03:47:53 PM
I can't do that when there are people trying to push the bullshit that is ID into public schools and discriminate against atheists(boy scouts, a lot of people will refuse to vote for someone if they don't believe in a god, it goes on).
It's the religious people who make it an issue not the atheists.
This
Plus, the atheists have the right to voice their opinions. God knows the Christians do when it comes to politics. Obama makes a quote stating that the United States is becoming a heavily Muslim populated country and the Republicans are crawling up walls.
If I remember correctly 11% of the United States classify themselves as atheists or agnostics. Imagine if these guys took a stand. A group as large as that would harbor a decent amount of lobbying power. At least enough to get their say in a situation.
There's only ONE openly atheist politician in the entire congress. That's both the house of representatives and the senate. Just one. Then you have many moderates (like Obama as president), and then you have many many religious extremists that believe that ID should be taught in schools and such.
I think atheists need to take a stand. It's the spirit of America. One man, one vote; but make your voice heard in anyway possible so that maybe; just maybe people will decide that your decision is truly the logical one.
Quote from: Smell Memory on August 04, 2009, 06:30:23 PM
but there are families that grew up in a religion-centered household that seem pretty happy akudood;
that's the illusion of happiness conveyed by their servility for their authoritarian/oppressive creator
they're never
really happy akudood;
Quote from: Bassir on August 07, 2009, 12:07:15 AM
that's the illusion of happiness conveyed by their servility for their authoritarian/oppressive creator
they're never really happy akudood;
that's why i said
seem akudood;
Quote from: Selkie on August 05, 2009, 04:29:23 PM
Fuck the catholics.
Woah easy there. They're much less in your face than many protestant sects besides...
Quote from: YPR on August 07, 2009, 07:51:24 AM
Woah easy there. They're much less in your face than many protestant sects besides...
They're still in your face and think condoms worsen the AIDS problem. akudood;
Many atheists believe religion is a waste of time and it makes people ignorant, which is true. I'm fine with religion, as long as Christians or any other religion tries to get benefits and force others out of their rights just because their book tells them it's wrong. The way it will be is that there are more atheists because of the internet and how easy it is to find knoledge and answers know, it should always be questioned until there is evidence, that is how science and the world works. Religious people try to cover this by hiding their fears and questions behind a 2000 year old book, and remember, this is a time before when people were killed just because someone accused them of being a witch. And lets not even bring up the laws in some third world countries. akudood; Religion is a tool used to make people ignorant and feel comfortable at the same time, it should be fine to let people believe in what they want, but just don't push it into others people's lifes like gay marriage.