I just saw another 3rd party game announced for Switch (The Banner Saga Trilogy) and, surprise! It will require an sd card and internet download with purchase of the physical cart.
Regardless of who the blame goes to, Nintendo for their choice of format, or devs/pubs for not wanting to pay for larger carts, which in turn is still kinda Nintendo's fault, I am sick of seeing this.
There are a number of games I would've loved to have on switch, but didn't buy simply because of this.
yeah unfortunately nintendo is absolutely (http://tinyimg.io/i/Q3nvTpF.gif) at hardware design as anyone who isn't delusional can clearly see
i predicted (anybody with half a brain could have) several times over that this would be an obvious problem more than two years ago while the switch rumours were heating up:
Quote from: Magyarorszag on May 13, 2016, 12:09:01 PM
Quote from: ÂÌ...Ì...Ì...Ì...Ì...Ì...Ì...Ì...Ì...Ì... on May 06, 2016, 07:48:40 PM
So, cartridges?
i'll believe it when i see it
nintendo would be absolutely stupid (lol) to return to anything like cartridges for a home console because solid state media is STILL vastly more expensive than optical media
that hasn't changed since the n64 days and really isn't likely to change ever
rom prices aren't really readily available to the general public but if we judge by things like flash memory vs blu ray discs, the cost per gigabyte for flash is literally about ten times higher than it is for discs
yeah sure nintendo would get wholesale prices on rom or flash chips but they get wholesale prices on discs too
suddenly the cost of publishing a game on a nintendo console would be whole dollars higher for third parties than it would be to publish the very same game on rival platforms, just like in the n64 days, and if they hope to recover much needed third party support they can't afford to disincentivize them by using some needlessly expensive distribution format
and
Quote from: Magyarorszag on October 21, 2016, 04:30:58 PM
Quote from: ƕɾο on October 20, 2016, 05:33:29 PM
dude solid storage has caught up to if not surpassed discs at this point
in capacity (and even then only arguably), not in price
so long as discs exist, flash storage will never be cheaper per unit than optical storage is
hi hiro 5thgrade;
and
Quote from: Magyarorszag on October 21, 2016, 04:00:55 PM
Quote from: C.Mongler on October 20, 2016, 03:06:27 PM
Solid state media isn't that expensive anymore (well it's way more than discs but compared to the n64 days at least) so it's possible they will have a 32 gb or even 64 gb maximum for the cards, which would negate the need for multicart games.
but it's yet another point in an ever-expanding list that discourages third parties from supporting the switch
porting to the switch is already a highly expensive proposition for third parties due to the costs (financial, temporal and otherwise) of supremely optimizing code for hardware that's two generations behind in computing power
but now they also have to pay a premium for solid state storage vs. discs (optical storage is about 1/10 the price/gigabyte of flash storage)
and the fruit of their labor would ultimately prove to be an inferior product to the ps4 and xbox equivalents every single time because of the immense power discrepancy
meaning ported software wouldn't sell well at all
so most developers are going to reasonably look at the switch and say 'what's the point', while pretending they're going to support it early on for marketing reasons just like what happened with the wii u
honestly, when after all these years nintendo still hasn't made any earnest attempt whatsoever to reconcile with third parties, nobody can blame them for snubbing nintendo
oh hey there mongler 5thgrade;
It's a handheld console more than anything. I sure hope you don't expect handhelds to use full-size blu-ray discs awdood;
Even Sony's UMD was a clunky disaster that PSP Go abandoned and that's not even a full-size disc; they're 64mm while DVDs are 120mm. Considering that 80mm BD-R discs on the market only hold 7.5GB, and let's generously double that to 15GB for dual-layer, a similar BD-based format can't even match the carts' capacity. Modern carts are better than the PSP/GameCube approach.
The best alternative I can imagine would be including an optical drive in the dock itself, so instead of an internet download you can combine the cart with a disc install that has to be performed while docked before being able to play it in handheld mode. That would increase hardware costs of the dock substantially while saving some money on game production and not even avoiding the problem of SD space.
If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market. Even if they advertise it differently, Switch is basically a handheld with video-out (like PSP had) and detachable controllers. Technology has developed to the point that handhelds can somewhat hold up to stationary consoles, but this is one of many compromises they still have.
Quote from: bluaki on July 16, 2018, 10:46:53 PM
It's a handheld console more than anything. I sure hope you don't expect handhelds to use full-size blu-ray discs awdood;
I don't of course, but at the time I absolutely did not expect that the NX would actually turn out to be some ridiculous impractical """hybrid""" platform. smithicide;
Quote from: bluaki on July 16, 2018, 10:46:53 PM
If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market. Even if they advertise it differently, Switch is basically a handheld with video-out (like PSP had) and detachable controllers.
It hurts. awdood;
Sure, if you want a good 3rd party machine, by all means, grab a ps4 or xbox.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that many 3rd party games are being released for the switch, and it would be (for the most part) a cool thing to have some games on for the portability.
I would've loved to buy the Mega Man collections on switch, but lo and behold, they couldn't even fit a collection of mostly 8-bit games on a switch cart.
Regardless of the reason why that happened, it all comes back to Nintendo's decisions
But I mean, people can feed me technicalities all day. I'll still always hate this situation.
Quote from: Big Goop on July 16, 2018, 10:55:24 PM
Regardless of the reason why that happened, it all comes back to Nintendo's decisions
this is what it really comes down to
nintendo is simply horrible at optimizing its hardware designs to be practical for third-party devs (and sometimes even first-party devs goonish), the only exceptions being those situations where they have a near-monopoly and devs don't have a choice but to conform to nintendo's insane standards (eg., traditional handhelds like the gameboy and ds lines)
Quote from: bluaki on July 16, 2018, 10:46:53 PM
If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market.
Actually, it's more like Nintendo hasn't really met that market since all the way back to around SNES or maybe N64.
N64 had issues with carts vs Sony's CDs. GameCube had issues with the miniDVD and relatively lower market share compared to PS2. Wii had low computing power and a weird controller when compared to PS3/360. WiiU had abysmal market share and still lower computing power compared to PS4/XB1.
So leaving that market, especially now that they can now have a handheld that computationally outperforms their last stationary console, seems like the right move to me. Nintendo has always excelled at the handheld experience and handhelds have gotten close enough to consoles that it doesn't make sense to split up the first party games anymore, like how Smash 4 released on both 3DS and Wii U.
That said, it's pretty clear Switch was rushed a bit because of just how poorly Wii U was received. It won't take all that long for 32GB and 64GB carts to be more readily available to developers at better prices. 3DS launched with max 2GB carts and later went up to 4GB and later 8GB. Switch launched with 16GB and has maybe one or two 32GB games so far.
My biggest concern from game card size right now is Smash Bros. Smash Wii U is 15.7GB + 2.3GB DLC = 18GB even with all the songs cut down to no longer than 2 minutes, 10+ fewer fighters than SSBU, no story mode, missing several 3DS-exclusive stages, etc. I sure hope Nintendo uses a 32GB card for it. Smash Bros certainly nets enough profits to justify it.
Quote from: Big Goop on July 16, 2018, 10:55:24 PM
Sure, if you want a good 3rd party machine, by all means, grab a ps4 or xbox.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that many 3rd party games are being released for the switch, and it would be (for the most part) a cool thing to have some games on for the portability.
Regardless of the reason why that happened, it all comes back to Nintendo's decisions
I don't really get the logic here
It would be great to have these third-party games on the Switch
because of portability+
It's a shame that Nintendo made the decision to inherit the technical limitations of
being a portable systemQuote from: Big Goop on July 16, 2018, 10:55:24 PM
I would've loved to buy the Mega Man collections on switch, but lo and behold, they couldn't even fit a collection of mostly 8-bit games on a switch cart.
Mega Man Legacy Collections 1 and 2 take up a combined less than 3.6GB when downloaded from the eShop. There's no way 4GB cards are too substantial a cost for a $40 game.
I'm guessing Capcom was too lazy to change the programming even a tiny bit from the separate releases, like even to the extent of changing the menu to include all the games of both collections.
They can't even fit the combined Mega Man Legacy Collection 1+2 on a single PS4 blu-ray disc y/n
Quote from: bluaki on July 16, 2018, 11:38:25 PM
Quote from: Big Goop on July 16, 2018, 10:55:24 PM
Sure, if you want a good 3rd party machine, by all means, grab a ps4 or xbox.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that many 3rd party games are being released for the switch, and it would be (for the most part) a cool thing to have some games on for the portability.
Regardless of the reason why that happened, it all comes back to Nintendo's decisions
I don't really get the logic here
It would be great to have these third-party games on the Switch because of portability
+
It's a shame that Nintendo made the decision to inherit the technical limitations of being a portable system
Quote from: Big Goop on July 16, 2018, 10:55:24 PM
I would've loved to buy the Mega Man collections on switch, but lo and behold, they couldn't even fit a collection of mostly 8-bit games on a switch cart.
Mega Man Legacy Collections 1 and 2 take up a combined less than 3.6GB when downloaded from the eShop. There's no way 4GB cards are too substantial a cost for a $40 game.
I'm guessing Capcom was too lazy to change the programming even a tiny bit from the separate releases, like even to the extent of changing the menu to include all the games of both collections.
They can't even fit the combined Mega Man Legacy Collection 1+2 on a single PS4 blu-ray disc y/n
This.
this is the issue. It's not
marketed as simply a "portable system."
As for Mega Man on 2 blu ray discs, one argue that it was because they were released separately, quite a bit of time between games. Why release separately in the first place, idk.
The real kicker is the X Legacy Collections on 2 discs. But here, you could argue it's because of the 2 playstation games, but even, then, a bit fishy.
Quote from: Magyarorszag on July 16, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Quote from: bluaki on July 16, 2018, 10:46:53 PM
If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market. Even if they advertise it differently, Switch is basically a handheld with video-out (like PSP had) and detachable controllers.
It hurts. awdood;
i use mine primarily in docked mode 5thgrade;
Quote from: Magyarorszag on July 16, 2018, 08:01:42 PM
oh hey there mongler 5thgrade;
?? 32gb and 64 gb cards
exist well 32 gb exist and 64 gb are IN DA WORKS, and the entire banner saga trilogy could fit on a 16 GB card lol i'm not sure what EPIC PWN you're getting at since all i did was present the idea that there can be large cart sizes and devs won't be doing multicarts...which are both thus far true?????
i'm not sure what solution you're suggesting otherwise anyway, 100% digital? that's not a solution to john's problem-o lol. the thing would never have had a disc drive so thats bunk lol
the big problem is nintendrones are tools and lap up fucking anything for any reason after the great wii u drought and so no developer has received any significant commercial backlash for doing this lol. it will keep happening until people actually don't buy DOWNLOAD REQUIRED games, unless nintendo swoops down from the heavens and says NO MORE YEE DEVELOPERS but why would they do that they're getting their cut lol
If you're going to release a game that requires a download anyway, why even bother with the costs of making a cartridge at all? Just do a digital only release on switch, but even that presents another problem...
Which is that Nintendo doesn't seem to know what acceptable storage size is for hdd, or flash memory, or whatever.
Yes. Sd card compatible, but they could easily include at least a couple hundred gigs of whatever storage they use, price increase being irrelevant
Quote from: Big Goop on July 17, 2018, 06:42:38 AM
If you're going to release a game that requires a download anyway, why even bother with the costs of making a cartridge at all?
banner saga is actually a weird case where
the physical is cheaper than the digital collection actually i just found out you get eshop discounts on the other games if you own one, so maybe not i'm too lazy to math, but usually the answer is 'free money'. physical collectors are going nuts on the switch, and then they can charge a premium to boot. see:every nicalis game. even if cartridges are "expensive", you're still only paying a couple bucks a unit to produce, so you're making a shit ton on sales (ignoring development overhead costs, obvs). it's not like devs are even close to losing money here, so there's no reason not to.
Quote from: Big Goop on July 17, 2018, 06:42:38 AM
Yes. Sd card compatible, but they could easily include at least a couple hundred gigs of whatever storage they use, price increase being irrelevant
I would not pay another $100 for a Switch with 200+ gb of internal memory, but to each their own lol.
I doubt it would be a $100 increase, but either way, you make an unintentional point. If they increased storage, they probably would've cut corners somewhere else
Nintendo's not really one to sell shit at a loss unless they're floundering, so it'd be damn close. Flash memory is spensy.
Quote from: Thyme on July 17, 2018, 06:04:40 AM
Quote from: Magyarorszag on July 16, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Quote from: bluaki on July 16, 2018, 10:46:53 PM
If you want a good TV-focused console for third-party games, use a PS4 or XB1. Nintendo has left that market. Even if they advertise it differently, Switch is basically a handheld with video-out (like PSP had) and detachable controllers.
It hurts. awdood;
i use mine primarily in docked mode 5thgrade;
Like putting a bandaid on an extra 21st chromosome. awdood;
Quote from: Big Goop on July 17, 2018, 05:41:55 AM
Quote from: bluaki on July 16, 2018, 11:38:25 PM
I'm guessing Capcom was too lazy to change the programming even a tiny bit from the separate releases, like even to the extent of changing the menu to include all the games of both collections.
They can't even fit the combined Mega Man Legacy Collection 1+2 on a single PS4 blu-ray disc y/n
As for Mega Man on 2 blu ray discs, one argue that it was because they were released separately, quite a bit of time between games. Why release separately in the first place, idk.
The real kicker is the X Legacy Collections on 2 discs. But here, you could argue it's because of the 2 playstation games, but even, then, a bit fishy.
Yeah, that's kind of my point.
Capcom basically had several options for releasing Mega Man Legacy Collection on Switch:
1. Release both collections separately just like they did on PS4 and Xbox One
2. Release one retail box that contains two separate cartridges for Collection 1 and 2.
3. Release one retail box that contains a cartridge for one game and a download code for the other
4. Release one retail box that contains a single cartridge for both games
5. Don't release to retail at all, just to eShop.
Option 4 obviously makes the most sense to consumers, and is essentially the same as also releasing a new PS4 disc that combines both collections into one. The only reason I can imagine to not take this approach is that they didn't even want to bother their programming team enough to combine the two titles into one. Like, if you don't care about consumer-friendliness why bother doing that when you can just hit "Compile this existing code for Nintendo Switch". Maybe they also save like fifty cents on each cartridge manufactured for using 1GB cards instead of 4GB ones.
Options 1 and 2 cost more because of the cost of maintaining more retail SKUs and manufacturing twice as many cartridges.
Option 5 drastically reduces sales, more than anything else because having a box on the shelf at retailers is the most effective way to advertise that a game exists.
That basically just leaves Option 3 as the one that might most appease penny-pinching business people who don't care about people who want complete cartridges or who fail to understand that's a thing people even care about.
I for one welcome our cartridge overlords
Also, is the internal memory prone to corruption like the wii u?
Quote from: Thyme on July 17, 2018, 06:04:40 AM
i use mine primarily in docked mode 5thgrade;
me too 5thgrade;
Which is why I don't care too much about getting third-party multiplatform games on Switch. Maybe for simple unintensive games like Mega Man or Sonic Mania or Cave Story or whatever, but not for anything that benefits at all from the higher CPU/GPU power that other platforms offer. But I actually don't care enough about power to prefer PC over PS4. Especially since a lot of console-to-PC ports are terribly optimized or buggy or release later or whatever.
At the same time, I don't really ever think "man I wish this first-party Switch game could be on a more powerful system like PS4" because Nintendo's games simply aren't designed in a way that can really benefit from that since they're generally so cartoonish. Only I guess Zelda and Metroid would really be throttled at all by this level of hardware. Other games generally can hit 1080p/60fps and don't seem to need more graphical effects.
Quote from: Big Goop on July 17, 2018, 07:01:49 AM
I doubt it would be a $100 increase, but either way, you make an unintentional point. If they increased storage, they probably would've cut corners somewhere else
For 200GB flash memory? Yes, I think that would add $80-$120 to the MSRP. Have you seen SD card prices? Devices like Switch generally use higher-reliability chips too.
Nintendo put the flash memory chip on its own separate board, which indicates they might plan to add higher-capacity models in the future, but they had enough trouble keeping the one 32GB console in stock for its first year.
Quote from: donʼt letʼs on July 17, 2018, 05:54:51 PM
Also, is the internal memory prone to corruption like the wii u?
I don't think so.
Ugh.
Research.
Hell, I'm surprised Octopath Traveler doesn't require an additional download wariodood;
Quote from: Big Goop on July 17, 2018, 06:24:11 PM
Hell, I'm surprised Octopath Traveler doesn't require an additional download wariodood;
....it's a 2.9 GB game my guy.
most of it being audio files probably wariodood;
yeah it's about on-par size wise with the Bravely games lol
All modern consoles storage bothers me. Installing and uninstalling on repeat to clear space for games is so annoying akudood;
i have about 20 TB of storage across all devices in my home thats kinda wild
my first PC had a GB HDD, and at the time that was considered to be a redonculous amount of data lol
Quote from: C.Mongler on July 18, 2018, 05:35:55 AM
Quote from: Big Goop on July 17, 2018, 06:24:11 PM
Hell, I'm surprised Octopath Traveler doesn't require an additional download wariodood;
....it's a 2.9 GB game my guy.
And?
I mean, if Mega Man can't fit, why should Octopath?
Quote from: Big Goop on July 18, 2018, 08:35:30 AM
Quote from: C.Mongler on July 18, 2018, 05:35:55 AM
Quote from: Big Goop on July 17, 2018, 06:24:11 PM
Hell, I'm surprised Octopath Traveler doesn't require an additional download wariodood;
....it's a 2.9 GB game my guy.
And?
I mean, if Mega Man can't fit, why should Octopath?
I think Bluaki hit the nail on the head with that one (missed that post until now srry); that seems more of a dev laziness problem than a size one because it's technically two separate game packages that they were too lazy to code-conjoin on a single cart. Seems to be an issue of a majority of the DOWNLOAD REQUIRED games tbh, see:
-Resident Evil Revelations 1 & 2
-Bayonetta 1 & 2
-Megaman Legacy Collection 1 & 2
-Megaman X Legacy Collection 1 & 2 (literally is 2 discs on PS4 and the bone despite being able to easily fit on one Bluray)
-Banner Saga Trilogy
All the other cases are just games that are GAWSH DARN BIG, greatly exceeding the 16 GB card and in some cases even the 32 one:
-LA Noire
-Doom, Multiplayer
-Wolfenstein II
-Shitty 2k sports ports
There's not a single instance of a Switch game that is NOT a collection of games you would buy separately if you went pure digital that is modest in filesize (sub 16 GB basically) that has a download required (besides patches) unless I'm mistaken, to answer your proposition.
yes. hence why i said what i said
Quote from: Big Goop on July 18, 2018, 09:17:38 AM
yes. hence why i said what i said
??? huhi don't understand what you're getting at then.
why would octopath have a separate download then? for your own example, it would be more work for the megaman devs to combine the game packages into one (again, they're not even doing this on other consoles). it would also be more work for the devs of octopath to partition their tiny game into a downloadable portion and an on-cart portion to save what's basically less than cents on production costs. not only that but they'd probably end up spending more on PR and community relations to negate the fan backlash for doing such a weird thing too.
from what i've heard from random dev forum pop-ins (as none of us know the actual dollars and cents of this matter as a thread-wide acknowledgement), the cost difference between the 1 GB, 2 GB, 4 GB, and 8 GB switch carts is mostly negligible. 16 GB jumps up a tad from the 8 GB, but thus far it seems like most devs are biting the bullet om that. The 32 GB cost jump from 16 GB however is relatively massive, which is why lots of devs aren't going that route. 64 GB hasn't actually even been made available by nintendo yet.
so again, in your opinion why do you think Square should have opted for a download for a ~2.9 GB game? at that point wouldn't it just make more sense for switch to just be 100% digital anyway? should games even come in boxes if devs can/should be that concerned with production costs?
also not defending the megaman devs decision to NOT do the work required to combine the packages BTW, just saying in a literal sense someone would have to spend the afternoon doing such a thing and therefore it would incur some literal decorum of "work"
for the record i think it is goofy across the board that the physical X collection is not a combo pack on any console lol
on that note too: why do you think another Capcom collection, Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Collection, was not divided up into a downloadable segmentation?
Relative file sizes of crapcom switch collection releases:
Megaman Legacy 1 + 2: 3.5 GB
Megaman X Legacy 1 + 2: 6.8 GB
Street Fighter 30th Ann. Collection: 4.9 GB
combo breaker 5thgrade;
Oh my god, lol.
I said, I'm surprised Octopath didn't require a separate download....
Because another game that shouldn't, that being mega man, does.
Square could've cheaped out too, using too small of a cart.
I was making an exaggeration.
Quote from: Big Goop on July 18, 2018, 09:51:42 AM
Square could've cheaped out too, using too small of a cart.
...but that's what i'm getting at dittodood;. it's less of a 'cheap out' than it is a technical issue with slapping two separate packages together. a lazy technical issue? sure, probably, but it has more to do with the fact that they would have had to produce 2 switch carts, like they are producing 2 blue ray discs for the other consoles, to have them both 'on cart'. coming to that ends, yes it's inevitably an expense thing, but it started as a technical one.
if it was a pure 'cheap out' like you're framing it, then street fighter 30th would have been stripped down to a sub 4 GB cart, would it not have?
I'm not making a serious argument here.
boyah is for serious posts only, this is your final warning!!
Uh huh...
i hate poe's law sometimes cry;
So this is where we're posting today huh? Cool what's up guys?!
Quote from: C.Mongler on July 18, 2018, 10:03:39 AM
i hate poe's law sometimes cry;
i mean, I put the wariodood; there for a reason
i just interpret wariodood to mean that the post smells like onions
Quote from: Magyarorszag on July 16, 2018, 08:01:42 PM
Quote from: Magyarorszag on October 21, 2016, 04:30:58 PM
Quote from: ƕɾο on October 20, 2016, 05:33:29 PM
dude solid storage has caught up to if not surpassed discs at this point
in capacity (and even then only arguably), not in price
so long as discs exist, flash storage will never be cheaper per unit than optical storage is
hi hiro 5thgrade;
i mean they could fit most of these games on larger carts, it's just cheaper to do it this way and I shouldn't have underestimated publishers willingness to cheap out on basic shit