Boyah, I will share with you some secrets. Last night someone paid me with an american express pre-paid gift card (50$), and i was ecstatic. I know from past experience that you can almost never authorize these cards for the full amount, but, if you authorize them for half on our system, it goes through. But when this happens there is a glitch, a chance, a possibility that i have discovered and exploited before on similar such occasions. And that is I can then close the gift card as a credit card with no limit. So I gave myself a 110 dollar tip last night, and it could have been higher, but i must make sure everything looks on on my report, and this is a long and complicated management of details in a way so that the truth can only be half known, but from what is there, i look legit based on my actual sales, and not on some self inflated total, as far as the restaurant is concerned. Since capitalistic credit lines are instantaneous in this country and based on faith, the restaurant's papers and due is legit, it is not them who is in the red, but somewhere somehow there are people who days, maybe weeks later will see some negative on a ledger and enver know how it got there and they will be scratching their heads and i will be getting rich.
But get this, for all the time i knew this, it never occurred to me that i could just buy a gift card myself and do this everyday i work, provided that i am paid with some cash to offset the trickery. so this morning i rushed to a store and got me a 25$ gift certificate and i closed that for $222. so it was a nice investment. i am still incredulous that no other server in the history of server-dome has discovered this as far as i am concerned. certainly non i have ever worked with in my years and that place. but i keep my mouth shut and they don't knot why i don't care when i leave early. you can only get caught if you want to get caught. and only by your manager.
i don't feel bad at all. i feel like madoff, who am i stealing from? some number on a screen? i have never claimed more than i thought i was due and so i keep it within some bounds and it's all guilt free money.
I'm sure other people have done it, they have just been fired and charged with fraud.
I won't tell you what to do my friend, but I will urge caution in what you do. I would rather not see you incarcerated.
Sooooo... theft in other words
boyah is becoming a criminal society
actually i feel strangely thrilled about what you're doing. must be the weed
Quote from: Echo Weiss on February 18, 2012, 07:27:31 PM
I'm sure other people have done it, they have just been fired and charged with fraud.
I won't tell you what to do my friend, but I will urge caution in what you do. I would rather not see you incarcerated.
there is no way they can absolutely trace it back to me. our database on the systems automatically erases the reports at 3:00 am for the next day. and what we print at the end of the night in hard copy, and all of the check reports we have from the various tables, is what anyone doing an audit has to work with. and my reports, or at least what i chose to put there, is clean and make sense. even if you were to scrutinize it. much less to go from that and figure out what exactly happened and to trying to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was me who stole this missing money.
but it wont even come to this, because there are about 5 different organizations involved in this, and nothing happens for three days on all financial transactions (grace/record period), and their centers are all over the world…so yeah, good luck in tying the pieces while everything continues to move at a million miles an hour. and this is why we had all of the financial trouble, because in this system, you wont know how huge the hole is until it is too late and you're falling in it. but those of us who caused it are pretty far away by that point.
Quote from: Dead End Moon on February 18, 2012, 07:29:17 PM
Sooooo... theft in other words
no. freelancing. i blame this world for working this way. it is what happens when you allow people to pay with plastic cards and invisible funds from nonexistent purses. i have come to loath and breach this system and it has skewed my sense of thinking because it is a perverted notion and practice to begin with, so to judge me on values such as theft or moral ground, is to ignore the abomination that i am working within and against, simply for my own advantage because i don't give a shit. in a sense, i am doing justice.
Quote from: Socks on February 18, 2012, 07:45:09 PM
no. freelancing. i blame this world for working this way. it is what happens when you allow people to pay with plastic cards and invisible funds from nonexistent purses. i have come to loath and breach this system and it has skewed my sense of thinking because it is a perverted notion and practice to begin with, so to judge me on values such as theft or moral ground, is to ignore the abomination that i am working within and against, simply for my own advantage because i don't give a shit. in a sense, i am doing justice.
That's not justice. How can that be justice? Actually, did you even really do this? I'm kind of starting to have my doubts about some of these things you say you do. And is this way of thinking you have for real? Or is it just some show that you're putting on?
If it's real, the way you word things in your posts, you sound like your deluding yourself so you don't have to accept any guilt or consequences for your actions. In essence basically just reshaping the world to fit just your wants and needs with absolutely no thought towards others. Though it's really only in effect in just your own mind. This really does sound like a very delusional way of thinking.
you are not Genius1131
Quote from: Dead End Moon on February 18, 2012, 08:32:53 PM
That's not justice. How can that be justice? Actually, did you even really do this? I'm kind of starting to have my doubts about some of these things you say you do. And is this way of thinking you have for real? Or is it just some show that you're putting on?
If it's real, the way you word things in your posts, you sound like your deluding yourself so you don't have to accept any guilt or consequences for your actions. In essence basically just reshaping the world to fit just your wants and needs with absolutely no thought towards others. Though it's really only in effect in just your own mind. This really does sound like a very delusional way of thinking.
Everything I said was true. As far as the actions go. My outlook on it is just my attempt to explain why I feel no guilt or think I am at fault for any wrongdoing. It might not be the entire story, but I stand by my words. I am not deluding myself into anything, I know precisely what my actions are and more importantly what they are not, and I did not have to try to feel this way, it is the way I will always feel about it because it is my honest and natural reaction to a truth. In my view, this is the fruit of chaos, which are seeded long before me, I am taking the poison but not using it. I think in many ways in real life, and you couldn't make sense of it because you don't see things the way that I do.
Quote from: Snowy on February 18, 2012, 09:40:59 PM
If you're seriously considering this you're really stupid.
i've done this in the past on many occasions, over a year ago, lets say, and nothing. now i am just taking it to the next level.
i encourage and approve
Where the fuck is the money coming from? And you're sure it can't be traced back to you or the restaurant?
This seems really risky. I wouldn't do it if I were you.
i'm dialing 911
Quote from: Nyerp on February 18, 2012, 11:29:47 PM
i'm dialing 911
(http://momentusmedia.com/blog_dev/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/1286892667thumbs_up_you_like_this_bumper_sticker-p128096592726024722trl0_400.jpg)
Quote from: Hippopo on February 18, 2012, 10:57:09 PM
Where the fuck is the money coming from? And you're sure it can't be traced back to you or the restaurant?
This seems really risky. I wouldn't do it if I were you.
gay
Quote from: Socks on February 18, 2012, 07:45:09 PM
i blame this world for working this way
This is a roundabout justification that requires too many mental gymnastics for me. You're good at this sophistry stuff, so I'm not surprised. And honestly power to you. But, I'mma call Occam's Razor: what if there's nothing wrong with theft? What if you deserve to take absolutely everything you can from the state and its apparatus? What if it's your responsibility to be illegal?
For all of your romanticism you sure are a shithead
Quote from: NPR on February 19, 2012, 03:07:16 AM
For all of your romanticism you sure are a shithead
Quote from: Socks on February 18, 2012, 09:11:03 PM
Everything I said was true. As far as the actions go. My outlook on it is just my attempt to explain why I feel no guilt or think I am at fault for any wrongdoing. It might not be the entire story, but I stand by my words. I am not deluding myself into anything, I know precisely what my actions are and more importantly what they are not, and I did not have to try to feel this way, it is the way I will always feel about it because it is my honest and natural reaction to a truth. In my view, this is the fruit of chaos, which are seeded long before me, I am taking the poison but not using it. I think in many ways in real life, and you couldn't make sense of it because you don't see things the way that I do.
This is self delusional. You want to think that you're one-upping the world/society/the man/whatever you want to label it as, but you're really just falling victim to your own self and you don't even realize it. And you still probably won't see it or admit it because you're deluding yourself into thinking that this is something justified.
Quote from: NPR on February 19, 2012, 03:07:16 AM
For all of your romanticism you sure are a shithead
This comment probably hurt the most of all of them. You guys aren't even fully aware of what I'm doing, it's nothing dangerous, and why should I not take advantage of it?
Edit: Also, I posted this thread to inform you all, and not to hear your opinions of my morality. I've already established my perception of this situation and am perfectly comfortable and honest with it. I'd suggest better things to waste your breath on.
There is no Boyah in jail. saddood;
I congratulate Socks on his theft from American Express due to their ridiculous annual fees that they charge cardholders.
Amex Gold is $125, the others are even more.
Quote from: Socks on February 19, 2012, 05:54:32 AM
This comment probably hurt the most of all of them. You guys aren't even fully aware of what I'm doing, it's nothing dangerous, and why should I not take advantage of it?
Edit: Also, I posted this thread to inform you all, and not to hear your opinions of my morality. I've already established my perception of this situation and am perfectly comfortable and honest with it. I'd suggest better things to waste your breath on.
But you're just stealing. Who cares if it's dangerous or not and why does that even factor in here?
bad&wrong
Quote from: Dead End Moon on February 19, 2012, 04:16:30 AM
This is self delusional. You want to think that you're one-upping the world/society/the man/whatever you want to label it as, but you're really just falling victim to your own self and you don't even realize it. And you still probably won't see it or admit it because you're deluding yourself into thinking that this is something justified.
maybe he just grew out of societal molding and can't (or no longer) have similar values that society holds
it's not 'self-delusion'
it's moral development
BUT I KNOW YOU GUISE ARE GOING TO ARGUE WITH "then i should steal then huh!!!"
I steal from Whole Foods (kale chips are definitely not '9$') and Barnes & Nobles--but never from a family-owned store.
this is because i have a biased and irrational dislike towards companies that overcharge and base my behaviors on an emotional reaction because of general assumptions I have on said stores (i'm too lazy to actually research them lol)
Plus, you get caught if you want to.
I was getting lazy with JMV and that's how he snaggled my puss. giggle;
**also i HAM realizing how extraordinary complex all of this moral relativism and blah blah could potentially grow into cry;
It is more upsetting with Socks because I figured he was the kind of person to work hard for his living and take joy in his accomplishments. Which is why I've never disrespected his employment as a waiter, because I know he works hard for perhaps not the best pay. I would've thought Socks would look with disdain upon anyone committing fraud for frivolity or anything less than survival
Quote from: NPR on February 19, 2012, 10:50:42 AM
It is more upsetting with Socks because I figured he was the kind of person to work hard for his living and take joy in his accomplishments. Which is why I've never disrespected his employment as a waiter, because I know he works hard for perhaps not the best pay. I would've thought Socks would look with disdain upon anyone committing fraud for frivolity or anything less than survival
Alas, Socks has proven that he is capable of falling to his own greed. This is such a sad state of affairs for an idealist such as him. And the worst part is, he doesn't see his own contradiction.
when did liveontheedge become the moral police
socks goodjob;
i don't see why taking some money from a restaurant you work at is so bad... it's not a lot of money either. It's a pretty small amount of money compared to how much the restaurant profits each day. Don't get caught though Socks! It seems pretty ok. I don't really know exactly what's going on though
Quote from: eeeeeee on February 19, 2012, 01:39:45 PM
i don't see why taking some money from a restaurant you work at is so bad... it's not a lot of money either. It's a pretty small amount of money compared to how much the restaurant profits each day. Don't get caught though Socks! It seems pretty ok. I don't really know exactly what's going on though
Well theft is kind of wrong
but the main part is he is risking a lot of trouble for something that can easily be traced back to him. Credit card companies aren't stupid.
Quote from: Echo Weiss on February 19, 2012, 01:41:18 PM
Well theft is kind of wrong
but the main part is he is risking a lot of trouble for something that can easily be traced back to him. Credit card companies aren't stupid.
I really don't think I would have a problem taking 100 or 200 dollars from the fancy (I'm pretty sure it's a fancy restaurant) that Socks works at
yes i'm not really sure about the details of this operation... I don't really get it. But if the money he is getting is being taken from American Express (or any other credit card company) then I really don't care.
agreed, steal all the money you want from those fucking corporations
Quote from: eeeeeee on February 19, 2012, 01:39:45 PM
i don't see why taking some money from a restaurant you work at is so bad... it's not a lot of money either. It's a pretty small amount of money compared to how much the restaurant profits each day. Don't get caught though Socks! It seems pretty ok. I don't really know exactly what's going on though
if you're doing something that you should'nt get caught for, I think the signs say that you shouldn't be doing it. Also, it's not even like Socks is going broke and down on his luck. There is no real justification for this aside from greed. Socks wants to manipulate the system so that he can get ahead.
There's no such thing as easy money, and everything comes back to you.
mayube this is why you guys are all broke ;)
Quote from: N o t S i d on February 19, 2012, 01:47:55 PM
if you're doing something that you should'nt get caught for, I think the signs say that you shouldn't be doing it. Also, it's not even like Socks is going broke and down on his luck. There is no real justification for this aside from greed. Socks wants to manipulate the system so that he can get ahead.
There's no such thing as easy money, and everything comes back to you.
I can see why anybody would say stealing is wrong! I seriously can. I don't steal money like this but I don't really want to yell at Socks for doing it. I really in my heart have no problem with him doing it. I think I'd rather have Socks the waiter have the $100 than AmEx the corporation
we don't agree but that's ok! There is such thing as easy money. if you have something people want you will make money easily.
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: Tectrinket on February 19, 2012, 01:56:35 PM
fuck the police
Quote from: N o t S i d on February 19, 2012, 01:47:55 PM
There's no such thing as easy money, and everything comes back to you.
if people like you they give you money sometimes
i do nothing and chang chang MAKIN MONEY OVVA HURR
Quote from: eeeeeee on February 19, 2012, 01:55:20 PM
I can see why anybody would say stealing is wrong! I seriously can. I don't steal money like this but I don't really want to yell at Socks for doing it. I really in my heart have no problem with him doing it. I think I'd rather have Socks the waiter have the $100 than AmEx the corporation
we don't agree but that's ok! There is such thing as easy money. if you have something people want you will make money easily.
Even if we don't agree, Socks is not doing something "sneaky" here. There is a high likelihood that he'll get caught, sued, and fired. This alone should be reason to reprimand his actions if you care about him.
Some of you really need to pause and think about what you're saying. Morality, or the lack of, is evident in many of you. Stealing is stealing, no matter from who/what. You may think of yourself as a modern Robin Hood, but even stealing from the rich is theft. And from a gigantic corporation, with all sorts of information you think they don't have. But they do.
I applaud those who actually have the decency and morality to be against this.
Quote from: Bert Schnick on February 19, 2012, 02:56:36 PM
Some of you really need to pause and think about what you're saying. Morality, or the lack of, is evident in many of you. Stealing is stealing, no matter from who/what. You may think of yourself as a modern Robin Hood, but even stealing from the rich is theft. And from a gigantic corporation, with all sorts of information you think they don't have. But they do.
I applaud those who actually have the decency and morality to be against this.
your whole argument is just "stealing is bad because it's stealing" though
Exactly. Stealing is wrong. Nothing needs to be added.
Quote from: Bert Schnick on February 19, 2012, 03:12:23 PM
Exactly. Stealing is wrong. Nothing needs to be added.
it's not wrong when you're stealing from a corporation that's only out to fuck you out of money anyway
Quote from: Bert Schnick on February 19, 2012, 03:12:23 PM
Exactly. Stealing is wrong. Nothing needs to be added.
I don't necessarily agree, because that is basically saying morality is black and white, but what socks is doing and what people are defending in this thread is hard to consider "good" by any means. Sure, it's a big faceless corporation but it's also stealing simply to line his pockets. It's not to feed his starving family, it's simply to gain more money.
And I will reiterate the fact that it's incredibly risky. He will get caught if he continues. It's just a matter of time.
Quote from: Travis on February 19, 2012, 03:13:31 PM
it's not wrong when you're stealing from a corporation that's only out to fuck you out of money anyway
It's not right either. Just because they are a corporation doesn't mean it's okay to steal from them.
Quote from: Travis on February 19, 2012, 03:13:31 PM
it's not wrong when you're stealing from a corporation that's only out to fuck you out of money anyway
nah its still wrong.
Quote from: Echo Weiss on February 19, 2012, 03:15:44 PM
It's not right either. Just because they are a corporation doesn't mean it's okay to steal from them.
why isn't it? do you think they will miss the money?
Quote from: Travis on February 19, 2012, 03:17:29 PM
why isn't it? do you think they will miss the money?
Because it's still stealing to line your own pockets? Why do you think it's okay to steal from a corporation just because they are a corporation?
And they may not miss it, but they will without a doubt notice it missing and have someone's head on a platter for it.
It would appear some of you also had shitty parents. You don't to be religious or any other sort of conscious to know stealing from anything is wrong. Even if the corporation "steals", you yourself should lower yourself to be a thief.
I didn't realize the majority of Boyah was trash. goowan
Quote from: Bert Schnick on February 19, 2012, 03:20:04 PM
It would appear some of you also had shitty parents. You don't to be religious or any other sort of conscious to know stealing from anything is wrong. Even if the corporation "steals", you yourself should lower yourself to be a thief.
I didn't realize the majority of Boyah was trash. goowan
lol yes tyler me and socks are trash
I'm glad to see you can admit it.
lol ifeelbetter;
Perhaps, but even trash like me knows stealing of any kind is wrong. sillydood;
I am not sure I like where this thread is going n_u
It's a bit disrespectful to call anyone trash though for having morals that are different from your own
unless they are extreme
Quote from: Bert Schnick on February 19, 2012, 03:26:54 PM
Perhaps, but even trash like me knows stealing of any kind is wrong. sillydood;
if your moral compass is really that black and white you need to think more about life
And if you think you're achieving something great by stealing, you need a reality check. But hey, you'll have plenty of time in jail to get back into reality.
the point is that socks has a risk of getting caught and if he does all this bullshit justification will have been for nothing
lol did i say i was "achieving something great"?
From my view, you sound like you're for him stealing because BIG GREEDY MEN SCARY WE GOTTA STOP THEM. And while I am against places like that, stealing is simply getting into nowhere but trouble.
also is he stealing from AmEx or from the restaraunt?
What does it matter? He's stealing.
Just wanted to make sure I had the facts straight.
so much mad in this thread ifeelbetter;
Quote from: Bert Schnick on February 19, 2012, 03:36:36 PM
What does it matter? He's stealing.
Robin Hood is a bad, bad man.
as far as I understand this, the money is either coming from american express or the bank that processes credit cards on behalf of your restaurant
if the latter, this might be a bad idea because eventually your owner/manager is going to get some calls from the bank about it, or else notice themselves that there are erroneous deductions being taken out of the restaurant bank account, and ask the bank why.
but if you only ever do it for amounts less than $25 (which is really all you should be doing, in good conscience, which does exist), probably no one will ever take more than 5 seconds out of their day to care.
and anyone who is saying this is an awful thing to do on principle is, by the same principle, an awful person. there is no honor among thieves, right? since when the fuck are credit card companies honorable or accountable to anything except their sick and lubricious desire to rape everything possible? let's nickel and dime them to death, it's about all we can do
[spoiler]related, when my friend worked at a movie theater he used to ring people up for senior discount tickets, then pocket the difference. probably an old trick[/spoiler]
haha "trash"
Quote from: vziard on February 19, 2012, 05:46:22 PM
and anyone who is saying this is an awful thing to do on principle is, by the same principle, an awful person.
I don't see how this follows.
Quote from: vziard on February 19, 2012, 05:46:22 PM
as far as I understand this, the money is either coming from american express or the bank that processes credit cards on behalf of your restaurant
if the latter, this might be a bad idea because eventually your owner/manager is going to get some calls from the bank about it, or else notice themselves that there are erroneous deductions being taken out of the restaurant bank account, and ask the bank why.
You're probably right, and I'm simply banking on past precedence that this wont become an issue, as long as it is not an outrageous amount. You see, even the managers do shifty things, so does the front office, so does the chef, who is also a partner. They do so much shady stuff that even they have trouble keeping a clean and manageable sheet for the big boss, the owner. So really, as long as whatever happens is in this ballpark, they'll just chalk it up to negligence, as long as I remain careful. I know them, how this conversation would play out, what they would say etc... it's simply a calculated risk, as I said before, there are not feelings attached here, I sleep as comfortably tonight as I will tomorrow.
I am not stealing from the restaurant, as their claim goes through, and how could I be stealing from the CC company when the card is a one time non re-loadable unit? Probably I am stealing from the middle man, if there is one, but I am not sure how they operate, they may just end up going after phantom targets.
So far this week I stayed just below $500, to make sure it's petty and not federal. And so that I can pay everything back if need be, I made over $1,000 in 35 hours though, honest work included too! And who is anyone to question me and my philosophy, I've bent over backwards for the little imperfections and annoyances in life, so that others may live more peacefully, and don't care for money, the reason I disrespect it like this is because it is an evil thing, you either master it, or it enslaves you. I will end up spending it, and whatever, you guys can live as you choose to.
Quote from: Snowy on February 19, 2012, 08:13:06 PM
If you're going to continue doing this, you really are the biggest shithead here.
I will let this play out, after all, it's not like I don't have a conscience.
Quote from: vziard on February 19, 2012, 05:46:22 PM
as far as I understand this, the money is either coming from american express or the bank that processes credit cards on behalf of your restaurant
if the latter, this might be a bad idea because eventually your owner/manager is going to get some calls from the bank about it, or else notice themselves that there are erroneous deductions being taken out of the restaurant bank account, and ask the bank why.
but if you only ever do it for amounts less than $25 (which is really all you should be doing, in good conscience, which does exist), probably no one will ever take more than 5 seconds out of their day to care.
and anyone who is saying this is an awful thing to do on principle is, by the same principle, an awful person. there is no honor among thieves, right? since when the fuck are credit card companies honorable or accountable to anything except their sick and lubricious desire to rape everything possible? let's nickel and dime them to death, it's about all we can do
[spoiler]related, when my friend worked at a movie theater he used to ring people up for senior discount tickets, then pocket the difference. probably an old trick[/spoiler]
they aren't honorable and accountable and it's better to not deal with them.
I mean, what exactly are you accomplishing by stealing from a credit card company? Are you some sort of maverick that is sticking it to the man? Are the credit card companies going to change their ways? No. Never. Not going to happen. One man is not going to do anything but get his own self in trouble. If you really wanted to take down these fucking corporations, you wouldn't use what products they are offering.
but that's not what Socks is after, he is after money. Plain and simple, and instead of earning what is due to him, he decides that he wants more. He doesn't go out and find a second job or whatever, he exploits some glitch that takes money from someone. Plain and simple. Dress it up in whatever lingo makes you happy, put all sorts of meaning into it, but it all boils down to thievery.
and couldn't the "and anyone who is saying this is an awful thing to do on principle is, by the same principle, an awful person." be turned both ways? By stealing from the credit card company, you're just as bad as the money-fucking assholes who run AmEx.
Quote from: N o t S i d on February 19, 2012, 09:29:59 PM
I mean, what exactly are you accomplishing by stealing from a credit card company? Are you some sort of maverick that is sticking it to the man? Are the credit card companies going to change their ways? No. Never. Not going to happen. One man is not going to do anything but get his own self in trouble. If you really wanted to take down these fucking corporations, you wouldn't use what products they are offering.
I have other ways and means by which I subvert society, its attitude and entities. However, I sought none of this with regard to the gift card situation.
Quote from: N o t S i d on February 19, 2012, 09:29:59 PM
but that's not what Socks is after, he is after money. Plain and simple, and instead of earning what is due to him, he decides that he wants more. He doesn't go out and find a second job or whatever, he exploits some glitch that takes money from someone. Plain and simple. Dress it up in whatever lingo makes you happy, put all sorts of meaning into it, but it all boils down to thievery.
'due to me'? Who are you to issue such words? What ties does fiat money have to effort, worth or value? It is a concept, an imaginary thing, and enslaves the world and has become its measure of progress. I don't pretend to dress up anything, I am not seeking to excuse myself, for I am exonerated, but simply to explain the circumstance in which these decisions and actions happen. I am after a life of my own making, and this is just another thing along the way, I will use it to my advantage and continue being who I am. Thief, yeah right. I have but sampled one bubble on a vast sea of froth, while others are just lapping at it.
Quote from: N o t S i d on February 19, 2012, 09:29:59 PM
they aren't honorable and accountable and it's better to not deal with them.
I mean, what exactly are you accomplishing by stealing from a credit card company? Are you some sort of maverick that is sticking it to the man? Are the credit card companies going to change their ways? No. Never. Not going to happen. One man is not going to do anything but get his own self in trouble. If you really wanted to take down these fucking corporations, you wouldn't use what products they are offering.
but that's not what Socks is after, he is after money. Plain and simple, and instead of earning what is due to him, he decides that he wants more. He doesn't go out and find a second job or whatever, he exploits some glitch that takes money from someone. Plain and simple. Dress it up in whatever lingo makes you happy, put all sorts of meaning into it, but it all boils down to thievery.
and couldn't the "and anyone who is saying this is an awful thing to do on principle is, by the same principle, an awful person." be turned both ways? By stealing from the credit card company, you're just as bad as the money-fucking assholes who run AmEx.
yes, I agree with all that, my point was exactly that it doesn't matter at all and anyone who has a serious ethical problem with "stealing" a few virtual dollars from a credit card company should find better shit to concern themselves with spam;
Quote from: Clucky on February 19, 2012, 10:24:56 AM
maybe he just grew out of societal molding and can't (or no longer) have similar values that society holds
it's not 'self-delusion'
it's moral development
BUT I KNOW YOU GUISE ARE GOING TO ARGUE WITH "then i should steal then huh!!!"
I steal from Whole Foods (kale chips are definitely not '9$') and Barnes & Nobles--but never from a family-owned store.
this is because i have a biased and irrational dislike towards companies that overcharge and base my behaviors on an emotional reaction because of general assumptions I have on said stores (i'm too lazy to actually research them lol)
Plus, you get caught if you want to.
I was getting lazy with JMV and that's how he snaggled my puss. giggle;
**also i HAM realizing how extraordinary complex all of this moral relativism and blah blah could potentially grow into cry;
I don't think that I would personally use that argument here in this situation. (Though I probably have used something similar to that in other situations that may not resemble this one at all)
And the self delusion was how he was trying to justify his actions to himself first of all and more importantly, and then also to others. Basically he created his own fantasy world around this action just so he wouldn't have to feel guilty about what he was doing.
Quote from: Travis on February 19, 2012, 11:41:06 AM
when did liveontheedge become the moral police
Since forever. But most of you actually know or admit that what you're doing is wrong when or if you're doing something wrong, instead of trying to pass it off as something it's not.
Quote from: Socks on February 19, 2012, 07:53:33 PM
You're probably right, and I'm simply banking on past precedence that this wont become an issue, as long as it is not an outrageous amount. You see, even the managers do shifty things, so does the front office, so does the chef, who is also a partner. They do so much shady stuff that even they have trouble keeping a clean and manageable sheet for the big boss, the owner. So really, as long as whatever happens is in this ballpark, they'll just chalk it up to negligence, as long as I remain careful. I know them, how this conversation would play out, what they would say etc... it's simply a calculated risk, as I said before, there are not feelings attached here, I sleep as comfortably tonight as I will tomorrow.
I am not stealing from the restaurant, as their claim goes through, and how could I be stealing from the CC company when the card is a one time non re-loadable unit? Probably I am stealing from the middle man, if there is one, but I am not sure how they operate, they may just end up going after phantom targets.
So far this week I stayed just below $500, to make sure it's petty and not federal. And so that I can pay everything back if need be, I made over $1,000 in 35 hours though, honest work included too! And who is anyone to question me and my philosophy, I've bent over backwards for the little imperfections and annoyances in life, so that others may live more peacefully, and don't care for money, the reason I disrespect it like this is because it is an evil thing, you either master it, or it enslaves you. I will end up spending it, and whatever, you guys can live as you choose to.
But by stealing, you've already become a slave to it.
Quote from: Dead End Moon on February 20, 2012, 06:42:58 AM
But by stealing, you've already become a slave to it.
Oh yeah, I'm a slave to it alright.
Quote from: Socks on February 20, 2012, 06:44:40 AM
Oh yeah, I'm a slave to it alright.
That's why I said that, and at least you finally admit it now.
Quote from: Dead End Moon on February 20, 2012, 06:38:51 AM
I don't think that I would personally use that argument here in this situation. (Though I probably have used something similar to that in other situations that may not resemble this one at all)
And the self delusion was how he was trying to justify his actions to himself first of all and more importantly, and then also to others. Basically he created his own fantasy world around this action just so he wouldn't have to feel guilty about what he was doing.
Since forever. But most of you actually know or admit that what you're doing is wrong when or if you're something wrong, instead of trying to pass it off as something it's not.
justifying actions implies accountability
there is no accountability
Quote from: vziard on February 20, 2012, 07:11:32 AM
justifying actions implies accountability
there is no accountability
He said it himself that he was justified in this. (plus all of the stuff he says about him not doing anything wrong)
Quote from: Socks on February 18, 2012, 07:45:09 PM
... in a sense, i am doing justice.
Quote from: Dead End Moon on February 20, 2012, 07:13:39 AM
He said it himself that he was justified in this. (plus all of the stuff he says about him not doing anything wrong)
i didn't say he didn't I siad Sanctity is Obsolete
applying perceived external values to actions
objective criticism etc
noI am not talking about nihilism and "ok kill anyone you want"
Quote from: vziard on February 20, 2012, 07:31:23 AM
i didn't say he didn't I siad Sanctity is Obsolete
applying perceived external values to actions
objective criticism etc
noI am not talking about nihilism and "ok kill anyone you want"
I don't even know where you're trying to come from anymore with this.
moral relativist troll
good one
Quote from: Snowy on February 19, 2012, 08:13:06 PM
If you're going to continue doing this, you really are the biggest shithead here.
Shut Up
socks can you teach me to do this?
Quote from: hobbit on February 20, 2012, 09:45:35 AM
socks can you teach me to do this?
i am willing and able.
Although Socks never meant for this topic to slip into an elaborate discussion of moral values, it has nonetheless. So forgive me for not complying with Sock's intentions, but I will continue in the direction this discussion is moving and examine morality within this post.
Before we can say anything, however, we must try to understand Socks. Socks is a man of ideals. He enjoys tugging at the fabric of society, and he takes value and pride in his own perspective of the world. He isn't afraid to question others, and in return, isn't afraid to take criticism. After all, one who gives criticism is willing to receive it (as long as it is in a respectful manner).
I do not wish to tell Socks he is wrong or immoral. Statements such as these would not affect a man of Sock's caliber anyways. He already realizes the impossibility of objective morality, and would not care about another man's ill-advised judgments against him. No one can see the world from Sock's vantage, so no one can judge that vantage point.
But one can take the time to question is own morality, and perhaps accept or reject the morals of others. That's what I wish to do here. Perhaps Socks, Snorkil, or Skylark can help me as they are the three who have provided the most interesting and concrete moral explanations that seem to go in the opposite direction of my own. I need their words of wisdom to try to tame my own beast so that I may live a more fruitful life like their own.
Let's examine Sock's philosophy since it seems to be the most heated and the most interesting. So far in this thread he has made three concrete claims about his own morals. I have thought about each of them for some time, but I still cannot seem to adopt any. Socks, please help me better understand where you are coming from and correct any errors that I have!
First there is the claim that virtual money, mere numbers on the screen, has no value. In fact, Socks claims that "fiat money" has no value, and therefore is not considered theft when taken. What is money, after all, but an invention of society. A mere fabrication of trade that holds no real value.
An interesting idea indeed! But I fear that there are possible underlying currents here. Unspoken, hidden premises waiting to be called into question. Sock's earlier conclusion seems to follow either the premise that "objective value" exists, or the premise that nothing has objective value.
For the record, I don't believe that Socks would subscribe to a belief in objective value. Such a belief would contradict his very character. He wasn't explicit, though, so I am not sure. Plus, when one adopts this premise, they are allowed to make claims such as "X has the value of Y" or "X is worth nothing." Since claims like these were made and he wasn't explicit, this premise could be a possibility.
But a greater possibility lies in the fact that Socks believes nothing has objective value. If we adopt this view, then of course we can make the claim "money as no value." In fact, nothing has "true" value. All value is a fabrication of either society or the individual. The universe does not determine any of this.
But here is where I get confused, so Socks please help me. In examining your way of living, if nothing has value in an objective sense, then how is it possible for you to make judgments on anything? Where do your desires come from?
I hypothesis that you, as an individual, create these values. So the value of money is different for you than for another. You make the claim that, form your perspective, money is valueless. If this is true, then why do you take it with such high risk to a negative outcome? It would be like me going out of my way to rummage the park for dog shit (something I hold valueless). Except for in my case, the only negative outcome to taking dog shit would be some puzzled stares from other people. In your case, taking money could result in a loss of a job, a civil suit, or worse, jail time. Either you are a reckless man, or you truly do value money. And if you do value money, then you are taking something of value. And if you are taking something of value, is that not theft? I am not clear on this.
You make another, more interesting claim though. It seems you believe your actions are a natural consequence to our society's operations. It is only a matter of time before someone is compelled to exploit the system when citizens are allowed to use plastic cards and virtual money. It is as if the feeling that compels you to take the money is as natural as the feeling that compels you to breathe.
But here is where I fall into a problem. Where does this end? Whenever I feel compelled to act, is that always justified? This a romantic belief, but what does it say about my character? It seems as if I am nothing more than a slave to my emotions and my appetite. Socks, is this true, or do I not yet grasp what you are saying? Are you nothing more than a being bound to your emotions without any sense of reason? I dare say you aren't. But then how can your argument stand?
Finally the most concrete and understandable claim is made. Socks says that his actions are permissible because they are not dangerous or harmful. I have already disagreed with this sentiment earlier in this thread. I believe his actions can be perceived as harmful if he is caught. Yet, I don't believe this is what Socks meant. By "dangerous" he could be meaning "violent." I am not quite sure of his meaning here.
As far as violence goes, he is correct. His actions do not physically hurt someone. But if all immoral actions depend on violence as a determining factor, I believe my morals are completely wrong! I find so many possible actions as immoral without a shred of violence attached to them. Please shed some light on this problem, Socks. Is this what you meant?
As you can see I am still very confused from your vantage point, so please help! I would like to understand your morality a little better, or at least your thought process thus far. Perhaps you are not giving a full defense of yourself, and that is understandable. But I believe everyone here craves a clear and coherent justification of your actions. At least I am so that I may better understand my own morals and bring them into question as well.
Philosophy
Wow, Hippo, that was awesome! I will of course grant you the due regard and answer each of your questions and ideas as fully as I can and know them.
to everyone giving socks shit for stealing, do you pirate digital (copyrighted) media?
shit's still stealing
not that i don't do it, but i hate how people justify piracy.
here's how I justify media piracy, I'm NOT downloading a cd in a case or a hardbound book (ie salable goods), I'm downloading sounds and letters
how can you own sounds and letters?!?!
Quote from: vziard on February 20, 2012, 01:20:46 PM
here's how I justify media piracy, I'm NOT downloading a cd in a case or a hardbound book (ie salable goods), I'm downloading sounds and letters
how can you own sounds and letters?!?!
i agree with that logic
but
i don't think that makes piracy okay. i think that digital sounds and letters are just as tangible as a book or a television. it's just a different medium. you're still getting something for free that somebody is expecting you to pay for. blah blah artists get no money from selling music anyways it all goes to record companies. fuck that logic. no matter how evil people make our record companies, it doesn't counter all that they do for the artist. the artist wouldn't sign with an agency if it didn't benefit them at all. even if the artists don't get a lot from the cd sales, the companies play a HUGE role in publicity, which leads to people going to the artist's shows and shit
I dunn o about that. The people who created those sounds or arranged those words in that way still own them... And aren't getting compensated for your enjoyment of them. Which I guess is how its supposed to go. I don't buy a book or cd (i don't buy cds) for the physical copy so much as the enjoyment i get from reading or listening to it
but i download music from the internet too. I just can't really justify it. I download it because I don't want to pay for as much music as I want to listen to
Quote from: vziard on February 20, 2012, 01:20:46 PM
here's how I justify media piracy, I'm NOT downloading a cd in a case or a hardbound book (ie salable goods), I'm downloading sounds and letters
how can you own sounds and letters?!?!
and let's not forget that the original copy of these sounds and letters still exists, you're just copying them, you're not taking them away
Quote from: eeeeeee on February 20, 2012, 02:21:01 PM
I dunn o about that. The people who created those sounds or arranged those words in that way still own them... And aren't getting compensated for your enjoyment of them. Which I guess is how its supposed to go. I don't buy a book or cd (i don't buy cds) for the physical copy so much as the enjoyment i get from reading or listening to it
But the artist AGREES to let the labels have the percentage of the profits, because it's in the artist's best interest. the artist wouldn't do it otherwise. and hey look, nobody is buying the album? that's going to make the artist much less valuable to the label, hurting their importance to the label.
Quote from: MF Doom on February 20, 2012, 04:28:37 PM
But the artist AGREES to let the labels have the percentage of the profits, because it's in the artist's best interest. the artist wouldn't do it otherwise. and hey look, nobody is buying the album? that's going to make the artist much less valuable to the label, hurting their importance to the label.
I'm sorry I'm not really understanding. I don't really know anything about the agreements made between labels and artists. But I'm still enjoying what they've created without giving them any money.
Quote from: eeeeeee on February 20, 2012, 04:31:33 PM
I'm sorry I'm not really understanding. I don't really know anything about the agreements made between labels and artists. But I'm still enjoying what they've created without giving them any money.
what i'm saying is that the artist gives the label full permission to take that percentage of their sales. if they didn't, it would be illegal. artists that go sign with a label usually do it for publicity and production reasons. if they label gets hurt, the artist will inevitibely get hurt as well, because of the contract.
i think it's pretty easy to understand
i'm not trying to be an asshole or anything. i just really dislike when people validate their piracy by saying that it doesn't hurt the actual artist.
im going on about a slightly different thing but
Quote from: MF Doom on February 20, 2012, 04:28:37 PM
But the artist AGREES to let the labels have the percentage of the profits, because it's in the artist's best interest. the artist wouldn't do it otherwise. and hey look, nobody is buying the album? that's going to make the artist much less valuable to the label, hurting their importance to the label.
music and book publishers work in such a convoluted market filled with extortion and political manipulation that regular principles like these don't really apply.
Quote from: MF Doom on February 20, 2012, 01:54:22 PM
i agree with that logic
but
i don't think that makes piracy okay. i think that digital sounds and letters are just as tangible as a book or a television. it's just a different medium. you're still getting something for free that somebody is expecting you to pay for. blah blah artists get no money from selling music anyways it all goes to record companies. fuck that logic. no matter how evil people make our record companies, it doesn't counter all that they do for the artist. the artist wouldn't sign with an agency if it didn't benefit them at all. even if the artists don't get a lot from the cd sales, the companies play a HUGE role in publicity, which leads to people going to the artist's shows and shit
the difference to me is exactly that one is tangible and one is not
if you buy a CD or a book you are obviously buying it for the content, but what you are
really buying it for is to have it, because it's a thing
the way a record label or a book publisher sells their content is by packaging it into attractive and convenient physical (and increasingly digital) formats to attract attention
it is sensible (though in my opinion not ethical) for a company to reserve rights to prosecute copyright abusers, IF AND ONLY IF the copyrighted content is being reproduced and SOLD in a venue unapproved by the copyright holder
this is why CC is cooler than Copyright because it distinguishes easily between "approved venue" scenarios, especially for digital content
but basically what I am saying is that if I pirate a book and print it off and give it to my friend, or class, or whatever, it is not piracy or copyright infringement. however if I took a PDF of a copyrighted book and did a cheap print run of it to sell on ebay, then it would be very questionable, because I would be copying a PRODUCT and products are what MONEY is about and MONEY is what LAW is about, not content and especially not ETHICS
Quote from: MF Doom on February 20, 2012, 04:39:42 PM
what i'm saying is that the artist gives the label full permission to take that percentage of their sales. if they didn't, it would be illegal. artists that go sign with a label usually do it for publicity and production reasons. if they label gets hurt, the artist will inevitibely get hurt as well, because of the contract.
i think it's pretty easy to understand
i'm not trying to be an asshole or anything. i just really dislike when people validate their piracy by saying that it doesn't hurt the actual artist.
did I imply that? Cuzz... I don't think I did/meant to.
uhhhh what the fuck why is this thread turning into a stupid piracy debate
stop it
It is late and I am tired dear friends.
I tried to sleep and not think of this damn thing any more and the more I thought of it the more I saw that it was killing me because I cannot exactly say where my motives come from, what inspires my desires and forms the dreams of my parade. What is this form of conscious that sees all things equally as they affect him fully but cares not for them? Certainly there is value in things but this does not mean that function equals such. If it did, there is an endless specter of possible notions and systems that could have merit simply in relation to themselves. And this cannot be the guiding belief in life. Because it is simply an objective necessity, built upon a subjective premise. In other words, a fallacy. But If it does sound familiar it should, because look around you, the world is built on such a principle.
This is essentially what 'money' is and how I value it. When I shop, when I go to the store or engage in transaction, it is always a matter of how much I have and am willing to spend versus how much it costs, and not about how much I worked and earned and it is worth. It is just a transactional commodity whose very purpose and practice is to facilitate a shared belief which shreds into pieces any notions that long term, intimate and self investment has anything to do with one's gains, fortune and standing. If you start to treat a material thing with too much attachment and emphasis on productivity, then you will miss that not even all of the money ever printed in the world can be worth more than the most gentle of kisses, smiles and winks... which are features and phenomenon that exist truly beyond themselves and will never mean more or less regardless of functional systems and or manners of understanding.
You must see the world not as a critic, but more of a poet, and realize that for whatever something is represented as, only those that most affect your soul have any real value, because they have impact. It is the only advice I can offer, as that comment said, it comes as naturally as breathing, so I do not fear or feel risk, I am always in the right, no matter what the prevailing attitude has instilled. After all, does living mean no more free choice? What are you following then? I should say, and maybe question why your desires and objectivity come so easy, what are they truly based on?
Media piracy is a response to the bullshit lack of adaptation the RIAA and the MPAA have made to changing technology.
When you focus a business model specifically built to kill piracy, you're also attacking the honest consumer.
I don't think it really even comes down to not wanting to spend the money. When you can pirate a song easier (and without DRM) than you can legitimately buy one, there's probably a problem there.
if it took longer to download the free version than the version that would cost me I would still go with the free version but I see what you are saying!
Quote from: eeeeeee on February 21, 2012, 08:18:54 AM
if it took longer to download the free version than the version that would cost me I would still go with the free version but I see what you are saying!
I read this article online somewhere about Louis CK, the comedian, and how he produced and edited his own live special and sold it for five dollars online. After subtracting equipment and production costs, he still walked home with a really healthy chunk of change and didn't have to deal with all the middleman bullshit.
So, it's cheap, it's DRM free so you can do whatever you want with it, it's easy to pay for and the money goes directly to the artist and it got massive support. With the accessibility of technology these days, why aren't more people doing this?
Quote from: Boognish-Redux- on February 21, 2012, 09:13:14 AM
I read this article online somewhere about Louis CK, the comedian, and how he produced and edited his own live special and sold it for five dollars online. After subtracting equipment and production costs, he still walked home with a really healthy chunk of change and didn't have to deal with all the middleman bullshit.
So, it's cheap, it's DRM free so you can do whatever you want with it, it's easy to pay for and the money goes directly to the artist and it got massive support. With the accessibility of technology these days, why aren't more people doing this?
That actually makes sense to me now. I understand this now better. I also really like Louis C.K stand up I'm glad he did this