Okay, part of the reason why I am making this thread is because I have to do my English culminating on it and would like to discuss it. Also, I would like to know your feedback of it because of its controversy.
Nonetheless, what are your opinions on it? So far from what I've read, we are still pretty incomplete on the knowledge of how this system works. I am currently reading about adult stem cells, cord cells, and embryonic stem cells.
Adult stem cells are the ones that have a kick in our research. So far, we have had results of its success on people. For example, someone with a shattered spine can have the stem cells in the spine's tissue replaced by stem cells from their nose. Bone marrow has a rich source of stem cells. However, the problem with this is that the procedure of extracting stem cells from bone marrow may result in destruction of the bone marrow itself.
Cord cells are the cells that are extracted during pregnancy. They can be used by the mother or father of the newborn. Take the umbilical cord, for example. The umbilical cord has several stem cells that are of a rich source. However, the distant the relationship between the mother and father are, the more likely that the body's immune system will reject them.
Embryonic cells are probably the most controversial. An example of this could be taking an egg from an ovary and taking the nucleus out of it. Then, take a skin cell and put the nucleus inside of that cell. These cells are extracted from the embryo, but when the embryo is at this stage, it is known as the "blastocyst". These cells double every 2-3 days. But the procedure of this source may result in destruction of the stem cells... thus, meaning that it's a matter of life or death for another human being.
But what do you think? There are results of success, but the research for this has not yet been completed. It still needs to be looked into more. Are you against this type of activity? What are your opinions on it?
Ooh, wow...
Personally, embryonic stem cell research shouldn't be used. I don't think it's fair for the innocent party to have to sacrifice itself without even it's own opinion on the topic. It's not fair to the baby. It has a soul, and a heart, and a brain, just like we do, except the heart and brain just take a little time to fully develop themselves.
As for adult cells and cord cells, those are fine. Really, that's more like donating organs, especially the umbilical cord. It's not really going to be used for anything more than trash, so why not donate it to be put to good use. If it can't find any matches, then tough shit; throw it away.
Quote from: PuuMastaFunk on June 02, 2009, 08:42:44 AM
It has a soul...
okay akudood;
Quote from: PuuMastaFunk on June 02, 2009, 08:42:44 AM
...and a heart, and a brain...
blastocysts, from which stem cells are taken, have neither akudood;
the heart does not start to develop until approximately 20 days later
Quote from: guff on June 02, 2009, 11:19:44 AM
okay akudood;
blastocysts, from which stem cells are taken, have neither akudood;
the heart does not start to develop until approximately 20 days later
Well, it's still a human, brought into the world by humans. It is the equivalent of murder.
Quote from: PuuMastaFunk on June 02, 2009, 11:35:58 AM
Well, it's still a human, brought into the world by humans. It is the equivalent of murder.
it has the genetic material of a human, but at that stage it's just a blob of around one hundred cells
Quote from: guff on June 02, 2009, 11:48:49 AM
it has the genetic material of a human, but at that stage it's just a blob of around one hundred cells
So? That doesn't keep it from being a human. Even if you don't want to consider it that, it is becoming one eventually, unless you kill it.
Quote from: PuuMastaFunk on June 02, 2009, 11:50:53 AM
So? That doesn't keep it from being a human. Even if you don't want to consider it that, it is becoming one eventually, unless you kill it.
It's less human than an extra finger at that point. doodthing;
It seems to me that you're just grasping at straws.
Your argument was them having hearts and brains, guff then pointed out they have neither at that point and you claimed it was still a human and that it's the equivalent of murder.
Also with embryonic stem cells it's generally done specifically with a clone or with the non viable embryos leftover from fertility clinics.
We have not reached a point where we can clone a viable human so that fetus is going to die regardless. It is created specifically to provide an exact genetic match in the stem cells for a specific person.
With the embryos from fertility clinics, where they are not looking for a perfect genetic match, the fetuses are usually not used after the couple conceives a viable offspring. The leftovers are either destroyed or frozen for future usage by the couple.
tl;dr the fetuses used in embryonic stem cell research wouldn't ever "become human" anyhow.
Quote from: PuuMastaFunk on June 02, 2009, 11:50:53 AM
So? That doesn't keep it from being a human. Even if you don't want to consider it that, it is becoming one eventually, unless you kill it.
so is ovulation without fertilization manslaughter
Quote from: PuuMastaFunk on June 02, 2009, 11:50:53 AM
So? That doesn't keep it from being a human. Even if you don't want to consider it that, it is becoming one eventually, unless you kill it.
Puu, you're not catching the whole point. One thing is that I'm confused on whether you say that you need a heart and a brain to be human. If you're still referring to the blastocyst, which as Guff said, has neither, then it's technically not human yet, materials otherwise. The heart and brain have not yet been developed.
Also, "souls" discussion is just gonna bring in another topic...
Quote from: Crazy Fucking Raccoon on June 02, 2009, 12:11:13 PM
It's less human than an extra finger at that point. doodthing;
people with five fingers have feelings too >:(
also someone explain the process of embryonic stem cells to me, what is the status of the fetus when the stem cells are, uh, i guess extracted? at that point
Quote from: Det in Fââ,,¢Â¯ Major on June 02, 2009, 04:09:17 PM
people with five fingers have feelings too >:(
lol akudood;
i meant like cutting off an extra finger baddood;
Quote
also someone explain the process of embryonic stem cells to me, what is the status of the fetus when the stem cells are, uh, i guess extracted? at that point
A few days after fertilization the zygote is called a "blastocyst"
It looks like this
(http://www.isletsofhope.com/pic/zzpic%20human%20blastocyst.jpg)
They basically terminate it at that point (less than a week, no semblance of anything) and harvest the cells to help a person.
It's like 200 cells, not many.
I am against creating embryo for the purpose of stem cell research.
I am not however necessarily against the idea of using stem cells of excess embryos, but really if it isn't necessary for most to be created I'm not sure if they should be making so many in the first place. By the way on that note, is it necessary for the stem cells to come from a living specimen? Because if embryos are fair game to science to use, marrow from recently deceased corpses should be as well, with or without permission to donate body parts. (since it's really more like donating blood than a limb)
so is it killed when it is perfectly normal, or is it extracted after complications and it has died?
also what is that kid talking about "creating" embryos? people reproduce just for the purpose of stem cell research or are they made in a laboratory?
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 04:31:26 PM
I am against creating embryo for the purpose of stem cell research.
what about a clone which is not viable in the first place
QuoteBy the way on that note, is it necessary for the stem cells to come from a living specimen? Because if embryos are fair game to science to use, marrow from recently deceased corpses should be as well, with or without permission to donate body parts. (since it's really more like donating blood than a limb)
I can't remember off of the top of my head but adult stem cells have some problems when compared to embryonic ones.
Quote from: Det in Fââ,,¢Â¯ Major on June 02, 2009, 04:47:38 PM
so is it killed when it is perfectly normal, or is it extracted after complications and it has died?
afaik the only embryos currently harvest are leftovers from in vitro fertilization(would be destroyed anyways) or clones of the receipient(removes possibility of rejection). There have been no verified cases of a human clone ever being viable, so it would die anyways.
Quotealso what is that kid talking about "creating" embryos? people reproduce just for the purpose of stem cell research or are they made in a laboratory?
The latter.
Quote from: Crazy Fucking Raccoon on June 02, 2009, 04:53:10 PM
what about a clone which is not viable in the first place
I suppose artificial or cancerous cells are useful fo research purposes
Quote from: Crazy Fucking Raccoon on June 02, 2009, 04:53:10 PM
I can't remember off of the top of my head but adult stem cells have some problems when compared to embryonic ones.
Well of course bone marrow has individually unique properties that can cause incompatible humans to reject them, just like organs, they may also contain certain blood or bone disorders from the person. However if for now it's still experimental, so I don't see a problem with using them.
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 05:00:34 PM
I suppose artificial or cancerous cells are useful fo research purposes
No I meant as in taking the genetic material from a cell of an adult who may have severe kidney damage, stripping the genetic information from a human egg cell, injecting the person's DNA into the cell, and starting the process of cell division (uh i think they use nutrients and a few things to do that, i'm not sure of the exact process). once the stem cells are harvested they are a perfect genetic match of the person who may need the new kidneys.
If it's an exact genetic match your body won't reject it: I mean it's your organ(well uh unless it's that disorder that makes the body attack itself)
QuoteWell of course bone marrow has individually unique properties that can cause incompatible humans to reject them, just like organs, they may also contain certain blood or bone disorders from the person. However if for now it's still experimental, so I don't see a problem with using them.
there is also something related to what the cells can do or something.
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 04:31:26 PM
I am against creating embryo for the purpose of stem cell research.
okay because they don't do it akudood;
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 04:31:26 PM
I am not however necessarily against the idea of using stem cells of excess embryos, but really if it isn't necessary for most to be created I'm not sure if they should be making so many in the first place.
because fertility clinics go through a whole bunch because a lot of fertility treatments don't work the first time
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 04:31:26 PM
By the way on that note, is it necessary for the stem cells to come from a living specimen?
i dunno, but uh do you know of anywhere that stores dead embryos doodhuh;
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 04:31:26 PM
Because if embryos are fair game to science to use, marrow from recently deceased corpses should be as well, with or without permission to donate body parts. (since it's really more like donating blood than a limb)
i uh don't know how well that would work or where you're coming from but let's analyze this
infection is a very serious risk with bone marrow transplants, as the recipient's own bone barrow is usually destroyed weeks before the transplant, which means not many white blood cells and friends
meanwhile, in the potential donor blood stops pumping, the immune system shuts down, all sorts of undesirable pathogens roam the streets and set vascular cars on fire
this is bad news for the recipient because sure their leukemia might go away but they will also die akudood;
the more you know, the fewer silly non sequiturs you make akudood;
Quote from: guff on June 02, 2009, 05:09:53 PM
okay because they don't do it akudood;
I knew that, but some groups are still rallying for it.
Quote from: guff on June 02, 2009, 05:09:53 PM
because fertility clinics go through a whole bunch because a lot of fertility treatments don't work the first time i dunno,
Yes, but viable sperm and eggs can easily be stored for prolonged periods of time under the right conditions, it only takes a few days for fertilization to take effect anyways, so why not just create as needed for efficiency's sake?
Quote from: guff on June 02, 2009, 05:09:53 PM
don't know how well that would work or where you're coming from but let's analyze this
infection is a very serious risk with bone marrow transplants, as the recipient's own bone barrow is usually destroyed weeks before the transplant, which means not many white blood cells and friends
meanwhile, in the potential donor blood stops pumping, the immune system shuts down, all sorts of undesirable pathogens roam the streets and set vascular cars on fire
this is bad news for the recipient because sure their leukemia might go away but they will also die akudood;
I pretty much mentioned that just a bit ago, i didn't mean for clinical use, only for testing purposes.
Perhaps i am mistaken though, I don't really know much about the actual process of stem cell research, I apologize if i said something unusual in that regard.
Quote from: guff on June 02, 2009, 05:09:53 PM
the more you know, the fewer silly non sequiturs you make akudood;
I may be subconsciously trolling as well, not sure.
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 05:26:49 PM
I knew that, but some groups are still rallying for it.
[citation needed] akudood;
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 05:26:49 PM
Yes, but viable sperm and eggs can easily be stored for prolonged periods of time under the right conditions, it only takes a few days for fertilization to take effect anyways, so why not just create as needed for efficiency's sake?
that's a question for the fertility clinics, not stem cell research supporters akudood;
Quote from: guff on June 02, 2009, 07:27:49 PM
[citation needed] akudood;
Of course it still has supporters
not only has it been done in the past http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-336779.html
but there are still proposals up in the air.
http://erlc.com/article/life-digest-britain-to-weigh-embryo-creation-for-body-parts/
as well as bills for the creation of animal human hybrid embryos for research.
http://www.biopoliticaltimes.org/article.php?id=4094
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 09:55:48 PM
not only has it been done in the past http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-336779.html
ok
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 09:55:48 PM
but there are still proposals up in the air.
http://erlc.com/article/life-digest-britain-to-weigh-embryo-creation-for-body-parts/
that would seem to be more for the generation of personalized body parts, not stem cell research in general
Quote from: Virgule punctuation mark on June 02, 2009, 09:55:48 PM
as well as bills for the creation of animal human hybrid embryos for research.
http://www.biopoliticaltimes.org/article.php?id=4094
good thing british politicians don't conduct embryonic stem cell research akudood;
guffs back. giggle;
Quote from: PuuMastaFunk on June 02, 2009, 08:42:44 AM
Ooh, wow...
Personally, embryonic stem cell research shouldn't be used. I don't think it's fair for the innocent party to have to sacrifice itself without even it's own opinion on the topic. It's not fair to the baby. It has a soul, and a heart, and a brain, just like we do, except the heart and brain just take a little time to fully develop themselves.\
So...
How many "innocent babies" made through in vitro fertilization are you willing to save? I doubt your wife is going to want to be impregnated with them.
I have no objection to any of it's forms. Research and development of their use should be pursued ardently.
I am for Stem Cell Research.
Quote from: PuuMastaFunk on June 02, 2009, 11:35:58 AM
Well, it's still a human, brought into the world by humans. It is the equivalent of murder.
If that's how you feel, then it's not much of a stretch to say menstruation is murder. By your logic, blastocysts are humans; therefore, we can assume that an unfertilized egg cell is half a human. Ergo: Whenever a woman has her period, she is killing half a human.
Quote from: Houdini on June 13, 2009, 06:40:10 PM
If that's how you feel, then it's not much of a stretch to say menstruation is murder. By your logic, blastocysts are humans; therefore, we can assume that an unfertilized egg cell is half a human. Ergo: Whenever a woman has her period, she is killing half a human.
Jesus Christ. If women are killing this many half children, think of how many men have killed. O_O
Quote from: Shadow_Sheik on June 13, 2009, 07:41:15 PM
Jesus Christ. If women are killing this many half children, think of how many men have killed. O_O
And that comes from pleasure and is controllable, when a period is misery and can also vary in time. ]:
Quote from: Det in Fââ,,¢Â¯ Major on June 13, 2009, 09:38:35 PM
And that comes from pleasure and is controllable, when a period is misery and can also vary in time. ]:
What about nocturnal emissions and SPONTANEOUS EJACULATION.
Quote from: Crazy Fucking Raccoon on June 13, 2009, 09:56:44 PM
What about nocturnal emissions and SPONTANEOUS EJACULATION.
im sure you enjoy it ;)
Quote from: Crazy Fucking Raccoon on June 13, 2009, 10:03:02 PM
i've never experienced either baddood;
clearly you've yet to spend a friday night with the guffster baddood;
saddood;