Lately, I've been thinking a lot about what I believe religiously and politically, and I think that I'm slowly moving away from the conservatism that I've been raised to believe in my whole life. This isn't the first time that I've done this - I briefly flirted with socialism a few years back before reverting back into a super-capitalist, but the more I've thought about things, the more I realize that I'm not a war-mongering, gay-hating Republican like my parents.
I think that, more than anything, I'm becoming a pacifist. I certainly understand the need to defend oneself if your life is threatened, but I don't think that I can really support war any longer. Why should we ask our nation's military to go overseas and risk their lives to shoot people they've never met? Many of our nation's politicians try to justify the "War on Terror" (and I use that phrase loosely) by diminishing the humanity of those in the Middle East, trying to paint the Muslim population as soulless and somehow inferior to us as human beings.
I can't bring myself to accept the idea that those we're currently fighting haven't ever enjoyed the company of their family and friends or laughed at a joke or ever been scared or held a women in their arms and told her that he loves her, because that's what I'd have to believe to think that it's alright to fight this war and watch hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people at this point be slaughtered because of our involvement.
I don't understand what's happening inside of me, but I feel like might be on the verge of a volte-face with my politics.
This is good news.
I dont see how anyone still supports this war, liberal or conservative
Quote from: YPR on May 02, 2009, 07:48:16 PM
I dont see how anyone still supports this war, liberal or conservative
i reckon those muslim fellers are terrists who hate jesus.
it's basically the crazy fundies who support some sick holy war.
Quote from: Ă,µÎ© on May 02, 2009, 07:49:59 PM
i reckon those muslim fellers are terrists who hate jesus.
it's basically the crazy fundies who support some sick holy war.
too bad we love Saudi Arabia
Quote from: YPR on May 02, 2009, 08:00:28 PM
too bad we love Saudi Arabia
they have oils and aren't as brown
Quote from: Ă,µÎ© on May 02, 2009, 08:12:34 PM
they have oils and aren't as brown
they're still pretty brown
they just have money
it's easier if you just think of them as a bunch of oprahs
So basically you're becoming a college student.
I may change in the future, but at the moment I can't convert to pacifism.
I don't believe in what Lennon said about "peace lasting forever". Maybe one day, we as human beings may find the solution with that perception, but we are far from that stage. I think at this point, all we can do is keep making mistakes until one day we can find the answer.
Quote from: YPR on May 02, 2009, 07:48:16 PM
I dont see how anyone still supports this war, liberal or conservative
War is a means to an end, it does not exist exclusively. As a rational, selfish bastard, I firmly support the end in this case. We all benefit from it, in ways far too complex, intertwined, and profound to simply list. Unfortunately, we often take our blissfulness for granted and complain when reality surfaces. At that junction our subconscious becomes conscious and we react impulsively. Not eliminating guilt, but subverting it, not eliminating suffering but displacing it.
I was raised to be a hardcore Christian conservative.
I believed everything until a few years ago. Meaning I swallowed everything that I was taught by my parents; gay marriage is wrong, capitalism is the only way to a successful society, God is the only way, abortion is murder, drug legalisation is bad, and countless other "conservative" standpoints.
However, I began thinking outside the box. Thinking about different societal-economic issues and how the average conservative chooses to fix them. I began to wonder about my religious beliefs, which lead me to question why gay marriage is considered to be wrong. I thought about why we fight, and later developed a somewhat pacifist opinion. I don't realise what the point of the war is anymore. It's pointless, really. I also started thinking about abortion. I later developed my own opinions about many of these issues and found the economic system of socialism and the political philosophy of Marxism. The way that I went on my change from Republican / Conservative / Capitalist to pretty much as far left as you can go was when I started thinking independently.
I realise that a lot of conservatives have thought the same way as me but still have different opinions. I'm not saying that they haven't. I'm just stating that you can't always say that the opinions of your parents are your true opinions. My political views are now almost the exact opposite as those of my family.
Quote from: Laurium on May 15, 2009, 04:02:22 PM
I thought about why we fight, and later developed a somewhat pacifist opinion. I don't realise what the point of the war is anymore. It's pointless, really.
I'm just curious...
Are you referring to the war in Iraq? Why, in your opinion, is it useless? What are your views of war in general? When are wars "justified"?
I used to be a chicken hawk fascist republican up until 4 years ago. Then I did a complete 180 in political views and became a liberal pinko commie socialist. Recently I've been moving back towards the middle a little bit, probably due to lack of interest.
Quote from: Dean Martin on May 18, 2009, 10:25:35 PM
I used to be a chicken hawk fascist republican up until 4 years ago.
It's the long island effect, it's not your fault n_u
Quote from: YPR on May 18, 2009, 10:26:54 PM
It's the long island effect, it's not your fault n_u
It really is. Actually my neighborhood is one of the more republican areas, too. I also live in one of the few republican congressional districts in the state, and the only one on long island.
so what's your stance on israel spam;
On a side note, I'm kind of now convinced that my parents are actually Conservative Republicans. They tend to agree with more conservative policies than liberal ones, but they like candidates from the democratic party more than from the republican party. probably because republicans as of late like killing brown people.
Quote from: Trav on May 21, 2009, 04:47:07 PM
they're very similar
but not the same thing
i still don't agree with either of them
I was raised to be conservative. My parents didn't really go into politics much with me, so I just followed whatever they believed. Some of it which is pretty trippy. As I got older I briefly danced on the liberal side, then back to the conservative, and then back to liberal, and the cycle repeated itself. Eventually I got into a stage where I thought conservatives were all biblethumping bigots who want to control everyone's lives in their own way and that liberals were lazy, bitchy people so deluded in their ideas they stopped making sense. Rush Limbaugh and Nancy Pelosi were heavy factors because my parents would always talk about how god damn retarded they are since I can remember.
Now I'm kind of both, although more leaning on the liberal. hocuspocus;
I was raised very conservative, but I've become very liberal over the years. I wouldn't consider myself a Democrat though.
Quote from: ChĂ...ÂŤshĂ...« on August 02, 2009, 10:48:08 PM
I was raised very conservative, but I've become very liberal over the years. I wouldn't consider myself a Democrat though.
Liberalism is an ideology (which is actually completely different than what it is considered to be today; liberalism is actually more in line with libertarianism), while Democrats are simply members of an organization.
Quote from: Zach on August 04, 2009, 12:13:34 AM
Liberalism is an ideology (which is actually completely different than what it is considered to be today; liberalism is actually more in line with libertarianism), while Democrats are simply members of an organization.
Exactly....
Normally liberals gravitate towards the democrats though and conservatives (well, they CALL themselves conservatives) flow into the Republican camp.
My father was always pretty liberal, but never taught me to think any certain way politically—but I was influenced by my father's supporting of several democrats over the years. However, I do not subscribe to one political party, as that would be stupid. Most democrats aren't even truly liberal, they're centrists, and it's a predominately centrist party. Only a few, like Dennis Kucinich are truly liberal.
So, I've always been very liberal, or progressive. However, only recently (a year) did I realize how incompatible religion is with the advancement of the human species and actual progressivism. I'm a devout Atheist and an anti-theist. I absolutely hate organized religion and I find it harmful towards the very intelligence of our race.
I believe all humans are equal, I believe the constitution is the supreme law of the land and strongly believe in it, and I hate how politicians swear onto some best-selling fiction book instead of the constitution. It perturbs me that religion, after 2,000 years still has an influence on our lives and we still erroneously believe in the Judeo-Christian God.
Religion is indeed the root to all evil. People can believe in it, but I feel it should have no goddamn influence on politics at all. We also shouldn't indoctrinate our children into a certain faith. No more "In God We Trust" on our money, no more swearing to the damn fairy tale book of the bible, no more holy wars, no more tax exempt status for churches, no more mentioning Jesus in speeches, no more "God Bless America", no more allowing the teaching of creationism in schools, no more pseudoscience, the government shouldn't let religion rot society to idiocy anymore.
I consider myself liberal.
I am literally liberal (not hard-set in beliefs) and politically some amalgamation of libertarian anrcho-capitalist; my mom is a batshit crazy fundie Christian and my dad is a Republican with a couple redeeming factors.
All I have to say to OP is that the "everyone is entitled to their own beliefs" thing is not correct, either.
Quote from: wziard on August 04, 2009, 04:51:56 PM
I am literally liberal (not hard-set in beliefs) and politically some amalgamation of libertarian anrcho-capitalist; my mom is a batshit crazy fundie Christian and my dad is a Republican with a couple redeeming factors.
All I have to say to OP is that the "everyone is entitled to their own beliefs" thing is not correct, either.
Damn, I'm a lot like you right there. I'm something in between a liberal and a hardcore libertarian. My mom is a batshit crazy fundie, and my dad is a sensible republican (he votes for the GOP but I'd really consider him more of a libertarian).
Tip for OP: Don't be a "liberal", don't be a "conservative". They both suck ass.
I remember when I used to love the United States, I thought it was the perfect country, that god loved you if you were Christian, then I found out it's all just a horrible lie. I think it's pretty disgusting how hospitals throw out citizens, merely because they can't pay for their outrageous medical bills. I mean, I used to think that "It's better if we just destroy them before they destroy us", but I realized violence really doesn't resolve anything, it just makes you look stupid. And the politicians, this government is so messed up, that companies can change the democratically elected representatives with money. I used to be proud of this country but now I thinks it's just ignorant and ruled by the corrupt.
Most liberals are fucking dumbasses who are liberal for the sole reason that it's the hip thing to do and because Bush was a bad president. It's actually really ironic because we like to paint conservatives as the more uneducated people, which is only true in the South, really. Liberals have no idea why they're liberal. Most people have no idea why they voted for Barack Obama.
Quote from: Title on August 15, 2009, 08:47:43 PM
Most liberals are fucking dumbasses who are liberal for the sole reason that it's the hip thing to do and because Bush was a bad president. It's actually really ironic because we like to paint conservatives as the more uneducated people, which is only true in the South, really. Liberals have no idea why they're liberal. Most people have no idea why they voted for Barack Obama.
Both parties have their hand of retards. akudood; The Republicans just have more ignorant people who ride the Jesus train and the money train. akudood;
Quote from: Title on August 15, 2009, 08:47:43 PM
Most liberals are fucking dumbasses who are liberal for the sole reason that it's the hip thing to do and because Bush was a bad president. It's actually really ironic because we like to paint conservatives as the more uneducated people, which is only true in the South, really. Liberals have no idea why they're liberal. Most people have no idea why they voted for Barack Obama.
Kinda agree with you here. I see dipshits on both sides. The key difference between them is that stupid conservatives make themselves seem obviously stupid, but stupid liberals like to appear smart when they really aren't. On the other hand, I've seen brilliant thinkers on both sides. I've seen quite a few conservatives who, even if I may disagree with them, are admirable. Most of these people are called "libertarian" and the like nowadays, becaus the new definition of conservative seems to be a holy roller who likes giant world-policing goverments. And of course, there's plenty of smart liberals who don't fall for the BUSH SUX LOL SAVE DA TREES propaganda.
To be, in my eyes, a great political thinker, I could care less about your views. A great political thinker looks into everything, understands the way other people think on an issue, and doesn't need to be blindly slammed into one of two categories.
Republicans are pretty damn greedy assholes, they would rather have that 6th tv than to help those who can't help themselves. akudood;
wait bush sucks is propaganda?
i thought that was a fact
Quote from: Khadafi on August 16, 2009, 05:48:01 PM
wait bush sucks is propaganda?
i thought that was a fact
or even personal opinion, maybe
but i guess everything is propaganda these days n_u
no i'm pretty sure even most conservatives agree that bush sucked.
hence why almost every republican candidate tried to distance themselves from him. baddood;
I'm pretty sure most republicans have Bush in their top 10 or 15. I forgot, but there was some discussion somewhere about who the best and worst presidents were, and the top 10 or 15 were basically the same except the Republicans had Bush on their list and the Democrats had either Carter, Clinton or Grant on theirs. I don't remember, it was awhile ago. I think it was Carter.
Bush has a shitty public image so if you were trying to get votes you wouldn't want to ally yourself with him. That's why McCain avoided him.
Quote from: RDX on August 16, 2009, 06:20:33 PMBush just has a shitty public image.
That he got by
suckingI would think that stating a person sucks would translate into fact and not propaganda when they:
-Led the country in a costly war based on "bad intelligence" and "god telling him to"
-Violated the fourth amendment and defended such.
-Authorized torture and then claiming that simulating drowning someone isn't torture
-Pardoning someone who committed perjury to cover up details in an investigation about the aforementioned war.
regardless of the party, I would think doing just one of those puts you far past the sucking line.
Quote from: Khadafi on August 16, 2009, 06:14:41 PM
no i'm pretty sure even most conservatives agree that bush sucked.
hence why almost every republican candidate tried to distance themselves from him. baddood;
I never said Bush sucking was propaganda.
Anyways, in 7 years when all of the liberals pull their heads out of their asses and realize that they actually voted a bad Democrat into office, not once, but twice, the country will probably come back to it's senses. I agree with most social beliefs that liberals have but then again that's not really why you vote for a president.
Clinton was a bad president? n_u
Quote from: Title on August 16, 2009, 06:39:15 PM
I never said Bush sucking was propaganda.
I was replying to:
Quote from: coz on August 15, 2009, 11:30:46 PM
BUSH SUX LOL SAVE DA TREES propaganda.
Quote
Anyways, in 7 years when all of the liberals pull their heads out of their asses and realize that they actually voted a bad Democrat into office,
Uh, my main problem with him is that he's hesitant to spend any political capital and letting the republican cry babies bend and twist every damn bill when he has a majority of democrats in congress so he can pass the legislation. He needs to stop being a bitch and tell them to go sit on a dick instead of trying to appeal to them.
There is a reason they lost the election.
Quotenot once, but twice, the country will probably come back to it's senses.
You can't predict the future so the "twice thing" is a bit silly.
And what senses? The senses that got Bush re-elected? baddood;
also two party systems suck but neither democrats or republicans are going to pass any legislation that will adjust that because they don't want to lose power. sucks for us.
QuoteI agree with most social beliefs that liberals have but then again that's not really why you vote for a president.
Uh, I'm pretty sure you
do vote for a president who best represents your political views. doodhuh;
Unless you know something I don't.
also I supported Kucinich originally before someone gets all pissy
Quote from: RDX on August 16, 2009, 06:41:12 PM
Clinton was a bad president? n_u
he got a blow job and the family values circle jerk spent millions investigating it.
Clinton was a bed president because he chopped Alan Greenspan's dick off and made him reduce interest rates to places that have gotten us in the recession we're in today. Bush Jr. and Sr. have had very little to do with the last two recessions. You can blame Iraq but it's really a matter of public vs. private debt, and Clinton is the root of nearly all the private debt in this country.
Quote from: Title on August 16, 2009, 06:48:08 PM
Clinton was a bed president because he chopped Alan Greenspan's dick off and made him reduce interest rates to places that have gotten us in the recession we're in today.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Interest+Rates+US
That clearly shows drop in early 2001(i.e. Before 9/11) continuing until late 2003. Bush was president then. doodthing;
I won't say anything about the even larger drop at the end of 2008 because it's obvious why that happened.
QuoteBush Jr. and Sr. have had very little to do with the last two recessions. You can blame Iraq but it's really a matter of public vs. private debt, and Clinton is the root of nearly all the private debt in this country.
Except that the Bush administration had just as bad, if not worse of a drop in interest rates.
You can then mention Reagan and conservative co.'s deregulation brigade allowing for predatory tactics allowing for unrestricted consumer debt.
both sides are to blame.
the entire us culture is basically "buy buy buy, pay later".
i can then bring this to a healthcare/education/etc thing but lol
obama is spending all my parents money
Quote from: Khadafi on August 16, 2009, 07:02:50 PM
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Interest+Rates+US
That clearly shows drop in early 2001(i.e. Before 9/11) continuing until late 2003. Bush was president then. doodthing;
I won't say anything about the even larger drop at the end of 2008 because it's obvious why that happened.
Except that the Bush administration had just as bad, if not worse of a drop in interest rates.
You can then mention Reagan and conservative co.'s deregulation brigade allowing for predatory tactics allowing for unrestricted consumer debt.
both sides are to blame.
the entire us culture is basically "buy buy buy, pay later".
i can then bring this to a healthcare/education/etc thing but lol
The reason that the drop happened in 2001 is because it took a couple years for Clinton's nigger bullshit to take effect and for people to start getting foreclosed on
What about the rest of the post.
And you completely ignored the chart.
QuoteThat clearly shows drop in early 2001(i.e. Before 9/11) continuing until late 2003. Bush was president then
The interest rates dropped while Bush was president, not the personal debt.
Considering that changes in interest rates don't take years to kick in, that point is just stupid.
Quote from: Khadafi on August 16, 2009, 08:37:16 PM
What about the rest of the post.
And you completely ignored the chart.
The interest rates dropped while Bush was president, not the personal debt.
Considering that changes in interest rates don't take years to kick in, that point is just stupid.
Interest rates drop every time
a) The economy starts to speed up (2001)
b) A Democrat comes to office (2008)
c) The Economy is dismal (2008)
Quote from: Title on August 16, 2009, 09:19:19 PM
Interest rates drop every time
a) The economy starts to speed up (2001)
b) A Democrat comes to office (2008)
c) The Economy is dismal (2008)
That's a nice catch all there.
"It's bad when they drop because of democrats but good when they drop because the economy is good"
Is Title trying to defend Bush? doodhuh;
Should've clarified. Bush was terrible, and that he sucked is not propaganda. But there is this sort of propaganda going on that appeals to young dumbshits who want to feel like they know politics. You know, they hear all about Bush being awful, but they cannot reason that and don't really think about issues. Far too many young liberals are bandwagoning morons.
Quote from: coz on August 17, 2009, 01:13:33 PM
Should've clarified. Bush was terrible, and that he sucked is not propaganda. But there is this sort of propaganda going on that appeals to young dumbshits who want to feel like they know politics. You know, they hear all about Bush being awful, but they cannot reason that and don't really think about issues. Far too many young liberals are bandwagoning morons.
Too many old republicans are bandwagoning morons too. akudood;
Quote from: Rawl on August 17, 2009, 08:03:56 PM
Too many old republicans are bandwagoning morons too. akudood;
i aint givin my money to dem fa
ggot negro commie atheists. this country was founded by jesus and it will stay that way yaherd
Quote from: Rawl on August 17, 2009, 08:03:56 PM
Too many old republicans are bandwagoning morons too. akudood;
This is true, but how many serious young republicans do you see? The average person is more liberal in their youth and more conservative in their old age.
Quote from: coz on August 18, 2009, 10:40:23 AM
This is true, but how many serious young republicans do you see? The average person is more liberal in their youth and more conservative in their old age.
baddood;
Quote from: Title on August 15, 2009, 08:47:43 PM
Most liberals are fucking dumbasses who are liberal for the sole reason that it's the hip thing to do and because Bush was a bad president. It's actually really ironic because we like to paint conservatives as the more uneducated people, which is only true in the South, really. Liberals have no idea why they're liberal. Most people have no idea why they voted for Barack Obama.
Though that may be true to a much lesser degree than you try to assert it with your arrogance and bigotry and the general idiocy of your entire ignorant crypto-republican attitude towards it allââ,¬â€ťI find the conservatives to be more stupid in that they seem to bring religion into the mix. I wish they were real conservatives.
Anyway, that's besides the pointââ,¬â€ťI think most people, especially young people, are completely stupid and uneducated when it comes to politics, like yourself. We really shouldn't attribute the general idiocy of the greater population to the entire ideology that is liberalismââ,¬â€ťbecause we're discussing the actual views rather than the stupid supporters. Often I find that people like you think they know about politics and ideologies, but you only know what kind of idiots each party has. That's not politics, you're just an idiot... for even bringing this up, you're a huge idiot.
Seriously. akudood;
Quote from: Title on August 16, 2009, 09:19:19 PM
Interest rates drop every time
a) The economy starts to speed up (2001)
b) A Democrat comes to office (2008)
c) The Economy is dismal (2008)
Obama came to office in January of '09. And there were already signs of economic decline since well before what we saw in September of '08. But that's oversimplifying the entire situation, like you are, so I'd rather not discuss it like this.
Quote from: Title on August 15, 2009, 08:47:43 PM
Most liberals are fucking dumbasses who are liberal for the sole reason that it's the hip thing to do and because Bush was a bad president. It's actually really ironic because we like to paint conservatives as the more uneducated people, which is only true in the South, really. Liberals have no idea why they're liberal. Most people have no idea why they voted for Barack Obama.
I don't know how anyone could even look at this post as a semi-logical stream of thoughts.
At it's core, politics is run like a business. The candidates try to "sell" themselves to you. They express the handy features that will come with them, and how they're better than the competition.
"liberal" is just an expression used to define a political view. It's not a political party, or a group of people. The term liberal could even be different depending on what situation you're talking about and what area you live in.
But the fact of the matter is, there are dumbasses on both sides of the fence. I remember flipping on CNN and seeing some lady say that she wanted to vote for Sarah Palin because when she saw her on TV she could "sense" the holy spirit flowing for her, and because of this it meant that God wanted her in office. I remember people seeing videos of people in rallies saying that Obama was going to turn the nation into a socialist dictatorship, and when these people were approached and asked what socialism was, they couldn't give a correct answer. It was just something that they heard from other people and decided to pass it on like a virus.
When people ask me who I thought was the best candidate out of McCain and Obama, I always say Obama. Many of these people then immediately start talking down to me as if I was a sheep who voted for the "hip" president because I didn't have a mind of my own. But in reality, although there was a lot of overhype and propaganda revolving around Obama's campaign, I didn't support him because he was black, or because he was young, I supported him because I thought that him and the people around him would do a better job for America than McCain.
Quote from: Oh mon Dieu on August 16, 2009, 07:02:50 PM
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Interest+Rates+US
That clearly shows drop in early 2001(i.e. Before 9/11) continuing until late 2003. Bush was president then. doodthing;
This roots of this recession go back to Clinton's presidency. He encouraged companies like Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac to lower their standards and give bad loans to minorities: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to-aid-mortgage-lending.html
Quote from: Zach on August 18, 2009, 11:50:46 PM
This roots of this recession go back to Clinton's presidency. He encouraged companies like Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac to lower their standards and give bad loans to minorities: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to-aid-mortgage-lending.html
Uh, do you wanna reword it to not sound racist?
EDIT: Okay, yeah, I see where you're going with this. I could see how someone could mistakenly take that as racist. >.<
Anyway, Clinton was pressuring mortgage companies to give out bad loans. That's the real root of the problem there, not Bush's tax cuts or whatever anyone else tries to blame it on. I'm not trying to defend Bush's economic policies, but it's not right to put all the blame on him.
wow, you people make sweeping generalizations
all the time akudood;
Quote from: Zach on August 19, 2009, 12:00:41 AM
Anyway, Clinton was pressuring mortgage companies to give out bad loans.
no, he pressured them to reach out a bit more to those who couldn't get standard loans
the lenders complied by offering subprime loans, then realized, hey, we can get people who qualify for normal loans to just take out sub-prime ones instead yeah that's a good way to make money (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119662974358911035.html?mod=googlewsj) akudood;
also, might be worth pointing out that the percentage of loans that were subprime were twice as high as they were under clinton n_u
and is it just me, or does it seem like claiming that "liberalism is a silly fad those darn teenagers get obsessed over" is a fad that those darn internet users get obsessed over akudood;
I can't say that I've ever met too many non-liberals on the Internet, so who knows. goowan
Anyway, I'm not saying that the recession is Clinton's fault or anything dumb like that, just that everything originates from his involvement with the mortgage companies.